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James Rawles Thinks We Will Go To A Cashless Society.

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Pillar of the Community

527 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2011  8:51 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add TheDanMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/12..._defunc.html


Quote:
I've received several e-mails and letters from SurvivalBlog readers, asking me if and when I believe that a "cashless society" is coming. My response is: Yes, I do believe that it is coming, but I can't say when. There are some that have argued that a currency collapse will be used as the pretense to implement a multi-continental or even global digital currency. Most likely it would be in the form of a debit card, similar to what has been popularized in Germany with EuroCheck (EC) Cards. I mentioned these cards in my most recent book, "Survivors: A Novel of the Coming Collapse". These cash equivalent debit cards would resemble outwardly a bank debit card, but would be issued by the Federal Reserve, and would be tied to your Social Security Number. Like a debit card, they would have a PIN used for password protection.

Say that a cashless society comes about. What will happen to all of the old paper currency? There will obviously have to be a deadline for it to be turned in for exchange. (For a credit on your card.) But what about coinage? Will that also be phased out? Officially, yes, but I predict that unofficially, there will still be a lot of it in circulation, in an entirely unofficial Gray Market.

In my estimation, coinage cannot be completely banned, for several reasons:

1.) Large numismatic collections exist, with many owned by wealthy and influential people. There is a long-standing legitimate reason to preserve them. It is noteworthy that even the notorious gold coin and bullion seizure by the FDR Administration under Executive Order 6102 exempted numismatic coins. To ban coin collections would cause a huge uproar and surely be deemed an illegal "taking" by any reputable court.

2.) There are millions of forgotten piggy banks and coin jars in private homes. For these small coin hoards to be declared contraband would be absurd.

3.) The melting of coins for their scrap value would soon become universally legal. (It is presently considered a crime.) It would clearly be in the government's best interest to have the defunct coins "out of sight and out of mind." But obviously some coins not yet melted down into ingots would have to be legal. I predict that governments will simply put a deadline on convertibility. Past the deadline, you would be "stuck" with the old coins, just as you would with the old paper currency.

4.) Coins have long been used mounted in jewelry and even in sculptures, and exceptions would have to be made to keep those coins legal.

5.) There is an important distinction between paper currency in the U.S. and our minted coinage: The paper currency--Federal Reserve Notes and their electronic ledger entry equivalents--are debt-based and created by the Federal Reserve (a private banking cartel) in cooperation with the U.S. Bureau of Printing and Engraving. But all of our coinage is created directly by the U.S. Mint, at taxpayer expense. So any effort to ban coinage would face a much stronger challenge in the courts on Constitutional grounds than a ban on paper currency.

With the safe assumption that it will still be legal to hold (but not necessarily conduct trade in) U.S. coinage, we can therefore conclude that:

A.) A large portion of the currently-circulating coinage will be turned in for redemption through banks and credit unions to the U.S. Treasury, for credit back to citizens, digitally.

B.) Use of foreign currencies for private domestic transactions will be banned shortly before or concurrently with announcement of the digital currency. (Like the Mafia, governments hate competition.)

B.) Gresham's Law dictates that a large portion of the citizenry will turn in their relatively worthless post-1965 dimes, quarters, Sacagaweas, Suzies, and Presidential dollars. But many people will wisely hang onto their pennies and nickels, since their base metal value is higher than their face value. And it goes without saying that nearly everyone will continue to hoard their 90% silver pre-1965 coins as well as their 1965-1970 (40% silver) half dollars.

C.) A gray market will immediately spring up in pennies and nickels, for small transactions, and pre-1965 silver coins for larger transactions.

D.) I further predict that both the coinage gray market and vast barter networks will quickly catch on in part because of interest by some Christians who fear that digital currency is The Mark of The Beast, as prophesied in the Revelation of John.

E.) Even though officially discouraged, the coinage-based gray market will not be vigorously prosecuted. Doing so would be politically unpopular. And because the collective value of all of the coinage in circulation is miniscule compared to the ocean of paper dollars, it will be considered a non-issue--something "not worth bothering with."

Here are some numbers to consider (with a snapshot of values as of 11 December, 2011), courtesy of the fine folks at (124) Not Allowed - Auto-Removed .com:

So, in essence, a nickel is still worth a nickel, but a dime is now just a copper token only worth about 2 cents. This makes it obvious that pennies and nickels are worth retaining, but the larger denomination coins are not.

(By the way, (124) Not Allowed - Auto-Removed also publishes some very useful information about silver coins. Be sure to bookmark those pages and print out reference hard copies of the key tables.)

Take a few minute to re-read my article about stocking up on nickels. With the advent of a cashless economy in mind, it makes even more sense to save your nickels!
Pillar of the Community
turtleoverhead's Avatar
Australia
585 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2011  12:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add turtleoverhead to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

I hate the idea and I pay cash wherever I can and demand to be paid in cash as well.
Cashless society is just another step to have a better control over you.
Edited by turtleoverhead
12/16/2011 06:18 am
Pillar of the Community
mitchhailey's Avatar
United States
1150 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2011  01:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mitchhailey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Eventually it will probably come down to that. And the people with real assets will be very happy.
Valued Member
United States
257 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2011  02:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wpd7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe that it will eventually come to that, just based on how financial transactions ahve been speeding down the digital version these past 10 years or so.

But a lot of the political bent in the article is just a lot of fluff.
Pillar of the Community
Thailand
1509 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2011  04:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thai-vic to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A completely cashless world in favour of electronic? Never.
Too many people (to whom this question applies) think only in terms of developed countries where it might work but for the rest of the world (let's say 85%) pray tell how!
Just for a start. The infrastructure required is (and will remain) way beyond reach to introduce for most countries.
I may concede such a situation in the late 22nd or the 23rd century but then which one of us is going to be around. There would only be the benefit of increased value of any collection for future generations. Just think how much a current cent, penny, rouble, yen, baht etc is going to be worth to a collector in 200-300 years?
Edited by thai-vic
12/16/2011 04:37 am
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Litotes's Avatar
Norway
510 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2011  05:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Litotes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Let's hope he is wrong. I for one cannot imagine a cashless society.
Pillar of the Community
Germany
1238 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2011  09:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chrisild to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Odd that he mentions the "EC card" as an example of whow things could be - in the US - at some point in the future. :) Originally those were legitimation cards when you wanted to get cash with a check ... except that paper checks have basically been extinct here in Germany for many years. Today we do not have the EC card any more; that would be a Girocard or some other debit card instead, usually combined with Maestro or VPay functions. (OK, even though these cards do no longer say "EC", many here still use the term colloquially.) And of course those cards were/are issued by banks, not the government.

Also, on one hand the author mentions "multi-continental" or "global" digital money - on the other hand he seems to expect that money would be "issued by the Federal Reserve" and "tied to your Social Security Number". Umm, what about people who do not have an American SSN? Anyway, I do not expect this to happen any time soon. However, we already are at a stage where in many cases cash is not an option any more, and it is quite obvious that this trend will continue ...

Christian
Edited by chrisild
12/16/2011 09:52 am
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satxwd's Avatar
United States
321 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2011  11:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add satxwd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't agree with the idea of a cashless society. I think there always should be, and always will be, cash in circulation. The alternative is scary!
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Ugly's Avatar
Canada
1733 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2011  12:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ugly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In Canada a large amount of daily transaction are conducted using our debit cards. It's currently the most popular way to pay for things according to the banks.

Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2011  4:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I didn't bother to read all that since I've been saying that same thing on this forum for years. I've mentioned all this in the past as it is already mostly here now. My Son is a good example since he owns his own buisness and hasn't really used cash of any form for a long, long time. As he pointed out, he gets all transactions on paper which is great for tax purposes, inventory, monitary ins and outs. And a Credit/debit card company does it all for him for free. He just waves a card at a gas pump for his car. He has a thing on his window for tolls in Illinois so no cash there either. And he gets cash back from the usage of a plastic card too.
I too use credit cards as much as possible and I too get virtually hundreds of dollars in back each year for using them.
The post office is in trouble since so many now pay all bills via the internet. Pay checks in most companies are electronic too. More and more companies are actually putting statements on their envelopes to pay via the internet to save postage.
NO that article is old. Like I said for a long time, cash is on it's way out.
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
187862 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2011  5:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If we were to go cashless today there will be a lot of problems, but we will be cashless eventually.

My predictions (and my opinions, your results may vary)...
  • It will be evolutionary, not revolutionary. It will happen and continue to happen as it is happening now, as a gradual change. Transactions are increasingly electronic, while they are decreasingly tendered in cash; eventually cash will be unnecessary

  • It will happen when the government realizes that the public use has dwindled to near zero, not because they decided to do it. That is, they will not be recalling all of the cash to exchanged for electronic bits. They will see the Federal Reserve holding a lot (if not all of) the cash; receiving it and no longer shipping it. First, they will stop production. Next, they will realize there is no reason to store it. They will recycle the metal and shred the paper.

  • It will not happen globally or all at once. One of the large economies will achieve it first, with the others following. The US may not be the first, but it will be one of the first.

  • It will not involve or include a global currency. If going cashless happens in America, it will still be measured in dollars and cents. If there were to ever be a global currency, it will happen (long) after (most of) the world has gone cashless.

  • Cash will still exist for a long time after the governments stop issuing it. Most definitely in the hands of collectors, but in the hands of those that do not want to be tracked or do not trust the system (and precious metals will still be preferred by those that do not trust the system).
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PacoMartin's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2019  04:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In 1991 Sweden still had a 10,000kr banknote worth about US$1800. Outside of the cash-obsessed Japan and Switzerland, they had the highest amount of cash in the world (per inhabitant measured in USD), ahead of Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, France, Italy, Britain, Canada, and the USA.

Sweden went through a period of about 6 years where the cash in circulation stayed roughly steady, Norway and Denmark went through a similar period.

The banks of the Scandinavian countries cooperated on a domestic system whereby person to person transfers could easily be done electronically with a phone app. Once the personal transactions could be done, there was very little motivation for a sizeable portion of the population to carry cash for dealing with businesses.

As of right now Sweden, Norway, and Denmark are the only countries in the world decreasing their cash in circulation as measured by value in their own unit of currency.

Sweden's Riksbank is adamant that they decrease in cash is not orchestrated by the central bank, but is a result of the free market. In fact, seignorage is extremely important to the operations of a central bank, because it is their primary source of income.

For the last 2.50 years banknotes have been vanishing at the rate of -2.4% per year whereas for the previous 1.75 years they have been dropping at -17.4% per year. Basically banknotes are circulating at roughly 20 notes per inhabitant with the bulk of value in a denomination which is worth roughly $55 which is used in ATMS. The leveling off of cash may suggest that there is a certain point where you can't radically reduce it anymore or you will lose the infrastructure of cash.

With the increasing complexity of producing banknotes with modern anti-counterfeiting devices, small countries cannot afford to have a bureau of engraving and printing. Denmark, Norway, and Sweden all have banknotes produced in Britain and France. It is possible that they are viewed as something that must be purchased at great expense compared to electronic payments.

The majority of people in these countries when polled favor keeping cash, even if they don't use it themselves.

In the USA over different periods of history the currency in circulation always increased, but at different rates. The first period is the 12-year period from 1917 to 1929 when banknotes were very large.

end : yearly : length
1929 : 1.5% : 12 years
1939 : 4.8% : 10 years
1945 : 25.1% : 6 years
1961 : 1.0% : 16 years
1971 : 6.1% : 10 years
2008 : 7.4% : 37 years
2017 : 7.3% : 9 years
2018 : 6.8% : 1 years

In 1929 the new banknotes at present day size were issued. Prior to WWII the rate of increase was modest. As expected during the 6 WWII years a massive amount of cash had to be produced as the government went into huge defecits. For 16 years post WWII currency increased at a rate much slower than GDP growth. The decade from 1961 to 1971 saw the final collapse of US currency backed by specie. In the 47 years since the USA officially left the gold standard, US currency in circulation has increased by around 7% per year ( a rate far above GDP growth) as the $100 banknote began circulating around the world.
Edited by PacoMartin
04/09/2019 10:14 am
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
187862 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2019  10:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Paco, please keep to one of the more current cashless topics. This one is over seven years old.
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