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Idea On Melted 50 Cents?

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trout1105's Avatar
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2012  08:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It would make a 60 oz bar or $1668 worth of silver at todays melt price.
Depends on how much you need the cash, Personaly I would hang onto them.
I have a few Kilo's of Aussie silver and I wouldn't dream of melting any of it.
In my opinion they will accrue value over time numisticaly and they are silver with a known worth anyway.
These maybe like the Aussie round 50cent coin with a mintage of 36,454,000 and 80% silver and considered to be only bullion value.
Why not make up sets and sell these if you need to get rid of them, That way you will be saving some of them and make a few extra bucks above melt without the refinary fees.
Just an
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glenzy1's Avatar
Canada
1554 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2012  08:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add glenzy1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In the past 100 years there half been probably a half dozen major silver melts in Canadian history. It makes me wonder (not that it matters to anyone alive today) in a hundred years from now, what will it be like for a novice collector to start up this Hobby and look for low graded Canadian silver coinage?
Over the past 10 years I've spoken to countless dealers who told me stories of filling buckets after buckets of silver Canadian coins some worn where you can't read the dates and others in choice BU condition, all for the melting pot! Some dealers stated they even had 50 gallon bucket drums filled to the top.
WOWEEE, it makes one truly wonder what is really left worldwide and I don't think the Royal Canadian Mint records would tell the complete story since there are sooo many heavy weight players worldwide involved in the silver melt game.

Glenn
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glenzy1's Avatar
Canada
1554 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2012  09:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add glenzy1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Also, just to add on to my last post, the residual (survival) rate of Victorian & Edwardian halves (my personal fav.'s) is believed to be between 1 and 2 %. So when you take into account the TOTAL # of Canadian Victorian halves ever minted for all dates is less than 2 million combined, there can't be many left around. All grades inclusive.
Just looking at my 2010 I.C.C.S. Population Report for Vicky halves states there are less than 90 mintstate examples, and most of the dates dwindle in #'s tremendously after EF-40.
When I hear collectors even "joking" about melting worn out Vicky's or Edy's it send chills down my spine. I feel early half dollars are severely underrated and under appreciated by most collectors. Not only were halves the workhorse of Canadian currency in the 19th Century, but most workers didn't make much more than that per days work. So can you imagine a Collector back in the 1800's putting away a fifty cent piece when you had to work an entire day for it? Not only that, imagine the buying power at face value a half dollar would have back then, would feed a family of four for several days.

Glenn
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16831 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2012  09:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I was wondering if someone knew approximately (wide percentage guess is fine) how many 50 cent pieces were melted. I know pinpointing the exact or even by 5% is nearly impossible but a good estimate would be fun to know.

Unfortunately, even a very broad guess is next-to-impossible to generate. The combination of official withdrawal, unofficial melting, export to melt, export by tourists/collectors and as-yet-undiscovered hoards means that it's impossible to determine what kind of survival rate a coin of any specific date or denomination might have. The best we can do is very general, rule-of-thumb numbers (such as, "95% of the population of coins are lost after 100 years").

We do know is that we coin collectors apply some selection pressure, to use a Darwinian phrase, that tends to even out the relative rarities of coins that survive. Coin collectors and dealers know which are the "key" and 'semi-key" dates, and never send those off to melt, while "common" dates all get melted. The net result is to make "common" dates comparatively more and more scarce as time goes on. Given enough time, "common" types would become almost as scarce as "scarce" types.

Quote:
Just melting them into ingots and swallowing the refining fee makes the most sense.

Do you, or more specifically your refiner, have a government licence to melt coins? Section 7 of the Canadian currency act states:

Quote:
Melting down coins

11. (1) No person shall, except in accordance with a licence granted by the Minister, melt down, break up or use otherwise than as currency any coin that is current and legal tender in Canada.

Offence and punishment

(2) Every person who contravenes subsection (1) or any condition attached to a licence referred to in that subsection is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding two hundred and fifty dollars or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both, and, in addition to any fine or imprisonment imposed, the court may order that the articles by means of or in relation to which the offence was committed be forfeited to Her Majesty.

And checking the definitions, 50c silvers are still "current". If you get caught, that's a $250 fine (which these days is trifling) and/or a year in the slammer, plus confiscation of all your melted silver. Sounds risky.

Quote:
Now, take a kilo bar of silver with a recognized seal into Scotia Bank(say Scotia or RCM) and they check it and deposit the funds into your account tres rapid.

I am utterly astonished to hear that Canadian banks do that. How long have Canadian banks been in the bullion dealership business?
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Ugly's Avatar
Canada
1733 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2012  12:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ugly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Sap I've seen the laws and all associated laws regarding melting of coins. No one pursues them, no one is interested in enforcing them in regards to silver coins. Since the switch in 68, there has been no case before the courts. Besides I'm not technically doing the smelting, I pay a percentage and the refiner does it. He's been doing this for 30 years quite openly and I've been dealing with him for twenty. Yellow pages ads, industry ads and so on. He thought briefly about doing nickels during the spike but declined to push his luck.

As to the definitions, EVERY Canadian coin back to 1858 is current and legal tender. No coins have been demonitized and that includes the former provincial colonies currency as well. Yes, the Newf cent is legal tender. Every Vicky coin issued is legal and current tender.

ScotiaMcLeod is the largest Bullion dealer in Canada and one of the largest in North America outside of the two North American Mints. They are a subsidiary of Scotia Bank and their ability to buy or sell PHYSICAL precious metals in a pinch is one of the reasons I keep an account in good standing there.

To answer the question, the coin smelting buckets are serious. If the coin has no numismatic value beyond it's bullion value, I toss them into a .500 .800 or .925 buckets. I also have one for .900 but it takes me a long time to get any real amount in there. When I have over 1000 oz of refined equivalent weight I take it down and boom... a melting we will go. I also get any gold scrap and any catalytic converters I've gathered up refined as well. I pay a small fee compared to most because everything is super well sorted without question on a long standing relationship.

So yes I'm serious and it's not just fifty cent pieces, it's all silver coins that have no market interest. Understand, I've posted Canadian silver at melt on this forum before and no one came to rescue it. I won't sell it at a loss to the dynamic money bleeders at Ebay/PayPal. This refining is the most cost effective option for me, I continue to buy collections for cash, sometimes large in size for the privilege of sorting and digging through what is there.

Disposal becomes a problem because I'm not Asyn and I'm not interested in rating a scratched Eddie twenty five cent piece as VF30 when it's AG scratched just to try and make a profit. Even the members of this forum could not absorb all these coins I acquire no matter how well intentioned. Also there's the math, if I lost one package of 100 dollars face value silver in the mail, that one loss would put me WAY below percentage wise what I pay to smelt.

It's the best option for me. I understand that some people might be frustrated to hear this, but that's how it is. On the upside once a year I clear my fourth best and lower coins at the auctions through a dealer and people here and elsewhere bid and acquire new gems for their collections. Those coins that ARE desirable and collection enhancing were saved from smelting because I go over EVERY coin I get by hand. Arguably I've put more coins back into the collecting market than any of these fly by night eight times face purchasers who head right to the smelter.

Happy New Year to everyone !
Edited by Ugly
01/01/2012 12:08 pm
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SPP-Ottawa's Avatar
Canada
10458 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2012  1:18 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My coin sorting process pretty much echos yours Ugly, less the catalytic converters. That is the method of choice, except I have a silver buyer that pays 5% above spot. Now and then, I'll find a really nice VG George V 50c and sell it on ebay. Not because I want to make more money, but because some coins I know are appealing to others... such as this one I sold last month (melt grade, but nicely toned).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290635459893#ht_500wt_1324

Or this one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290635446706#ht_500wt_1324
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Apollo's Avatar
Canada
1610 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2012  1:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Apollo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I myself have got a bag of worn or cleaned silver coins, to either sell at melt or just keep for an eventual hole filler. But never shall I melt them.
New Member
Canada
43 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2012  2:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mrent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for further explaining your reason behind your decision to melt currency, I know feel better now that I see that your nicer 50c pieces do indeed get saved and put back in the market.
Rest in Peace
biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2012  3:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How long have Canadian banks been in the bullion dealership business?

The Bank of Nova Scotia was a major player in the 60s. Used to be dealers would carry their latest printout at shows.
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Ugly's Avatar
Canada
1733 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2012  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ugly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK I got a couple emails on this - one I wasn't too happy with either. I am not a mass coin murderer. So here you go, all the identifiable silver crap on the right side of my desk (the right is the searched side) as of today, in one pile, the same pile I'd sort and toss in the melt bins.

Any talk about the actual listing will HAVE to be in the Promotion forum by forum rules. I won't talk about it here in this thread.

promotion thread here
https://goccf.com/t/106525
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SPP-Ottawa's Avatar
Canada
10458 Posts
 Posted 01/02/2012  12:33 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Normally, I would not expect this to sell. But timing is everything, and I think it is a great time to buy silver, with prices below $29 per oz... which leaves me scratching my head, with the recent drop in silver, why sell now Ugly?
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Edited by SPP-Ottawa
01/02/2012 12:37 am
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trout1105's Avatar
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 01/02/2012  12:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Don't sell em ugly, Do your melt and wait for a better Silver price.
Or sell them at the melt price you would be happy with.
Why sell them like this only because some of the forum dissaprove and you loose money in the process
If people want to save these from the refinary let them pay the premium and not take advantage of you on the end of the year slump in the silver price .
Stick to your guns mate, You save plenty of coins anyway
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Apollo's Avatar
Canada
1610 Posts
 Posted 01/02/2012  01:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Apollo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, silver is at the lowest it's been since November of 2010, wait until it recovers at least to $40/oz.
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merclover's Avatar
United States
10635 Posts
 Posted 01/02/2012  02:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add merclover to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Edited by merclover
01/02/2012 02:32 am
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Ugly's Avatar
Canada
1733 Posts
 Posted 01/02/2012  10:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ugly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I cleaned off my desk on Dec 10th, this is just what's accumulated on the right since then.

I think what will happen here is the person who pointedly complained will get a sense of just how much scrap there is every month and that they will not want to buy even this little pile of uselessness, never mind the 15-25x this amount that will be in the melt bins by June. I gave them a genuine opportunity to bid on it, at the lowest cost in in over a year. I know they saw it because I answered a question about HST.

I'd honour a bid but I don't think it will happen. If you are going to spend 2K on silver bullion why not buy a nice tidy bunch of maples that will sell at a premium instead of someones cleaned/damaged/common coins that I MUST collect HST on? The Maples carry no taxes, they aren't damaged and they are easily sold all over the world. That's why they exist.

This is more of a social experiment, the outcome to be decided. It's a question of value, I search looking for specimens that would make people proud to show others "look what I have", if I set it aside it's because I think it won't do that.

Personally if I were spending 2K on random coins I'd buy a couple small collections that hadn't been searched and sorted yet. I'd want nickels and the cents and the holed 1859's and everything else that makes going through these so much fun. This is not fun, these are my cast offs.
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