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1921 Morgan Dollar Question

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United States
459 Posts
 Posted 05/28/2012  8:14 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add nybird to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I was wondering if anyone could help me attribute this coin if possible. Honestly I am baffeled. It has lots of die cracks which I know is not too special. What seems interesting is the doubled T UNITED, the tiny repuch or Cud at the foot of the F in OF and the little marks above the M in UNUM. Sorry for the miscolored photos (I usually only photo copper.) Thanks in advance for any help or observations.


1921-Morgan-Dollar-Question

1921-Morgan-Dollar-Question

1921-Morgan-Dollar-Question

1921-Morgan-Dollar-Question

1921-Morgan-Dollar-Question

1921-Morgan-Dollar-Question
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2012  6:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I usually just wait for SuperDave to chime in on all 1921 Morgans because he usually can attribute all 1921-P's and D's from memory before I can do any research myself to determining what VAM it is. If he hasn't responded by tonight I will start to see if I can help in any way though. Just know that he is the resident expert on this date and type so I am sure you will have the answer you seek very soon
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2012  8:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What Bryan never realizes about me (much <3, brother) is that I don't attribute these things from memory. I don't have one of those. Do you remember the 70's and 80's? I was there, and I don't....

If I attribute a 1921, it's because I've just clicked 70-100 links in a row at VAMworld and come up with the match. Yes, the major VAMs are obvious, but much of the real work is in the trenches. Datamining. Looking at one very large bunch of pictures, and extrapolating or interpolating the data to possibly match the die state of the coin shown.

The coin you present, nybird, will be one of them. A better one, to be sure, because the peculiar combination of die cracks - on both sides downward through the wings, and the one into the rim above the I - is hardly common. Once I or someone actually does the grunt work of looking at existing images, your coin will likely be a pretty easy attribution of "early die state of this" referring to some known VAM.


Quote:
What seems interesting is the doubled T UNITED, the tiny repuch or Cud at the foot of the F in OF


These are hub artifacts, known to all D1-reverse 1921's (as yours is), and cool but not relevant to attribution. Above the M (and the U) I see striations headed towards the denticles which are indicative of a worn die which has been pushed too long and too hard; are these the marks you're talking about, or is it the squiggle parallel to the top right of the M? If that's a die crack, it may be relevant.

Let me change into my Speedo, and I'll dive into the VAM pool and see what we come up with.
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United States
459 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2012  11:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nybird to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks guy's, I can do 1859 Canadian large cents, but the VAMs have me stumped so far.

The squiggle above the M runs parallel to the rim, but does not look like a die crack. I am upstate right now without coin in hand but if you need any other close ups let me know. I really appreciate the help. I'd love to learn more about these coins. Could it be VAM 7?
Edited by nybird
05/30/2012 12:02 pm
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CoinsKelly's Avatar
United States
3453 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2012  12:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Do you remember the 70's and 80's? I was there, and I don't....


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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  7:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've been through all of the D1 reverse 1921's with no result. No doubt, someone has seen these cracks on a known VAM, but that information is not public at this point.

So, I need to modify my position - I no longer think this'll be an easy attribution. What is needed now is microscopic examination of potential doubling, and the possibility exists it might not be identifiable.
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CoinsKelly's Avatar
United States
3453 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  10:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am trying to ask this without sounding like a smart alec, but SuperDave, have you always been doubled?
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2012  01:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

I am trying to ask this without sounding like a smart alec, but SuperDave, have you always been doubled?


No. Not until Bigg Fredd passed. It means that much, and this is who I'll be from here on.
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CoinsKelly's Avatar
United States
3453 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2012  07:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is really awesome.
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trout1105's Avatar
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2012  08:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
No. Not until Bigg Fredd passed. It means that much, and this is who I'll be from here on.

Good on you superdave The void has to be filled.
Welcome back big fella, I hope you can fill bigg freds ( God Bless im) shoes.
Will be nice to see some sort of continuity regarding honest advice/grading from a highly regarded ccfer without prejudice and with humor.
If you can carry on his legacy, Kudos to you and it will keep the Big mans memory alive
I have only been on this site for a brief time and I was enamoured by his honest( and sometimes windups/funny )replies.
So if you can saddle up the horse he left behind you will be in for the ride of your life.
I have got your back Mate
Bloody good on ya
Valued Member
United States
459 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  10:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nybird to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rather then repost this, I was wondering.... Since this does not seem to be a known VAM what is my next step? Should I just sell it on ebay or here as an unattributed VAM? Melt it? Send it to an expert? Try a coin show?

Sorry to sound stupid but as I really don't do silver, this coin still mystifies me. Yet this coin does have some interesting marks.

In the 1859 Canadian Large Cent world, that I do focus on I would ID the coin and die easily with just the die cracks since they are like fingerprints. Even without die cracks the shape of the letters and repunches are usually enough.

Has any thought gone into organizing VAMs by the known die cracks.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  12:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Has any thought gone into organizing VAMs by the known die cracks


There is a slowly-building database of 1921's identified by die cracks. With that said, keep in mind that 45 million 1921 Morgans were minted in Philadelphia alone, as much as the total series mintage for all years of those Large Cents combined. And a large majority of them are still out in the wild....

Think about how many die pairs that adds up to. Hundreds.

It's possible your coin could be attributed, but the end result would not be of significance. This one (and I speak as a real fan of 1921's) is an unnecessary headache.
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