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 Replies: 21 / Views: 3,360 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
500 Posts |
Having gotten back into this hobby only a bit over a year ago, it is interesting to me how it has evolved. There have always been those, in this and most walks of life, looking to take advantage of others and of their ignorance or lack of knowledge. One of the issues is that for many this is a hobby, but for others it is a business and livlihood. When those things meet, and $ is involved, some can get burned and some are looking to burn others. The ridiculous prices on ebay and elsewhere is prrof of that! Last year I was looking to sell some "junk silver" I inherited to fund starting some nice collections. I first looked up spot and "going rate" on the internet and then went to a few "We buy G&S" places locally. I eventually sold it to a B&M coin shop for 25X face, but found out at my first coin show that dealers there would have given me 26X had I waited. The first G&S place I went to is aggressively marketed and was very busy. The clerk hands me a brochure that says they pay 8X-10X face for silver coins, but up to 15X for Morgans. My guess is they had been using the same brochures for years. First, he asked if I had been anywhere else. I told him I hadn't - but that alone was a "profiling" question that irks me. Then he says he'll offer me the top of their range of 10X - since I had only dimes, quarters, halves. I told him I'd seen over 25X online and he said that was theoretical and maybe possible when silver was $49/once but not now at $36/ounce and no one would offer me that. He then said you cannot melt silver coins by law and so "melt value" is a complete myth so his 10X offer was fair. I was so po-ed at the guy, and place, that I registered a complaint on them with the BBB. What bothers me is that after 3 rounds of emails between me and the owner, via the BBB complaint, the BBB closed the case with nothing going on their record. The owner simply claimed I was lying and nothing like that happens at his stores and that 10X was an insult and that 20X was more their going rate, I was offered 20-23 at other G&S places so that was true - and that I must be lying. I asked why they were using outdated pamphlets/brochures that said 8-10 then and he claimed they weren't. He claimed no one by that name works at that store and that I must be confusing them with someone else. I'd bet they are using those same brochures today - tho with silver having tanked some they are less insulting than at that time. But how many customers has that guy, or his cohorts who all likely try to prey on folks who aren't as savvy, ripped off? Conversly, I'm not sure how well I take those who brag about cherry picking coins worth hundreds out of $1 bins at shops and shows. Again, taking advantage of others ignorance from either side seems OFF to me. I am more open to symbiotic relationships than this Shark mentality so many have. Cherry picking from loose change and roll hunting is one thing. JMHO |
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Valued Member
United States
73 Posts |
Yes its a shame that there's a huge school of sharks in the cold ocean.   I always try to persuade friends and family to sell their metals on ebay for well a competitive price. every coin I've ever bought from a friend or family I paid spot for bullion and a good price for numis coins, but I imagine the gold buyers would feel different. although I guess there's a difference between hobby and capitalism  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4337 Posts |
Dude, if anyone wants a "fair" price that is defined as "fair" in their eyes than they should go work for it. Auction wares on ebay, rent a local flea market table for $50 on a Sunday and hump the day away. If you want a quick buck and want to get it from someone that has overhead as would be associated with a retail storefront, than live with what they offer. If you're smarter than the next guy to know decent rates for silver junk than bully for you and shame on the moron that gets taken advantage of by having not done his homework. If the ignorant don't want to be taken advantage of they ought to study more. I just got burned recently and you know whose fault it was? Mine. Why? I didn't study the playbook. Who else do I blame for that? The seller? I'll buy 2012 Walking Lib 1OZt coins all day from my online connections at $30 a pop and turn around and sell them on ebay at $40 and not feel bad for a second. The uneducated person that pays me $40 instead of researching, calling, negotiating etc... to pay what I pay is just that, uneducated and I can't feel bad for them. Does any business owner feel bad when they make 30 - 40% margins on consumers? Should they? It's called free commerce and its what makes this country great. This also includes bragging about cherry picking a $350 coin for $100 off a less than educated seller. What should I do? "Hey man, I cant give you $100 for this, its worth 5x that much!" - seriously? Why did they not know this in the first place? If you're going to get into any game, you better study the playbook and if you don't and you get whooped 10 to nothing, well, there's no crying in baseball, let's just leave it at that. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2602 Posts |
I understand the viewpoint of a buyer way underbidding on junk silver and taking advantage of a seller. That is wrong. The seller should get a fair market value with enough room for the buyer or dealer to pay their bills, and keep a little profit to make their living.
Now as for cherrypicking, I think that it is perfectly fine. I am the one that spends countless hours studying coins, varieties, errors, buying and reading the books, looking on the internet to learn about this aspect of the hobby. Are you saying my knowledge should be wasted? I think I should be able to use my knowledge from my blood, sweat and tears to buy some bargain bin coins from a dealer who did not spend that time (nor would most even want to) to go through the coins that he has had in his possession.
If he wanted to cherrypick his own coins he's owned them all that time, he could have done the homework, spent all that time, etc. But most dealers I talk to don't have the time to be bothered with that. They have more important business transactions to do (1000s to 100s of thousands of dollar transactions, rather a $1 coin being worth $20 because it's a rare variety) I don't get the sense that most dealers in coin stores have time to sit there and go through every coin they have. So, I see nothing wrong with buying coins from a dealer from the bargain bin and I happen to land some cherry picks. Usually I will give the dealer additional business and buy more than just the cherrypicked coin- so they are happy they moved more material and I am happy I got a variety I was looking for. Everybody wins.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8516 Posts |
Buying junk silver is cherry picking also. You had better know what you're doing if you're gonna go through a junk silver bin. It's no different.
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2130 Posts |
Knowledge is key. I recently picked up a 1893s Morgan on ebay for about 1/4 - 1/3 of what it is actually worth. It was as simple as the title being wrong. Am I going to feel bad about this? Simply "No". I did my homework & a lot of searching. My local dealers don't me cherry picking. In fact they like it when I or another find something. They say it keeps the customers coming back. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
500 Posts |
Taking advantage of a mistakenly labeled advertisement just strikes me as WRONG. To prey on someone's honest mistake like that is akin to stealing from them. This notion that because you spend a lot of time studying and learning your HOBBY justifies ripping others off just makes no sense. It is justifying immoral conduct.
I can buy, to some extent, the idea that a dealer who doesn't have the time or knowledge to cherry-pick his own coins, and who is making a profit on them ANYWAY might be a borderline situation ( though the bragging about it strikes me as over-the-top ). But taking advantage of mistakes by others is just not kosher, IMO. I am not a relgious person, but I believe strongly in the golden rule and ethics in all aspects of one's life. Those looking to prey on others mistakes - or to get-over on others? And to brag about it to boot?
There is a line between making a profit and a legit bargain and crossing over to preying on others ignorance or innocent mistake. I think way too many people cross that line these days and that makes the whole hobby suffer - and mistrust ABOUND. It is a bit sad really. But keep justifying ripping off old ladies and kids and newbies, ethics be damned.
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Valued Member
United States
458 Posts |
Old ladies? Wrong. Children? Never. Newbies? Depends on the age, honestly.
Its a dog eat dog world out there, and if you know something someone else does not, good for you!
Let's be honest, okay? There are a lot of REALLY REALLY unintelligent and ignorant people out there. There is a reason he was offering those prices to you - people sell their silver and gold for those low prices all the time for numerous reasons (Need the money now, want the money now, dont really care what they get for the coins bc they were given/inherited and they just want to get some fast $$$, etc etc).
I am against preying on the very elderly and the young. As for everyone else, go read a book and educate yourself!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1391 Posts |
BuffalosRock, I wrote out a longer reply, but if you can not see that the previous posters are not promoting the ripping off old ladies, kids and newbies, then there is probably little to say.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3184 Posts |
I dislike the people trying to rip others off to make a buck! 10x...........come on! The hotel gold buyers are the worse!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
BuffalosRock...I've followed & responded to several of your posts on this subject. You seem to have strong opinions as to what is & isn't an acceptable level of profit. This may seem a little bit out of left field, but I'm curious as to what you do for a living? It has to be an unusual field for it to fit within what you have stated is an acceptable level of profit.
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Valued Member
United States
227 Posts |
It only becomes "ripping someone off" when the dealer starts creating lies or counterfeits a product to confuse the seller. The dealer deliberately trying to deceive the buyer regarding the market value was wrong, but the offer of 10x itself is NOT. It is the individual job of both the buyer and seller to know what they are buying or selling. As a seller, it is not my responsibility to inform you of what your item is worth... I mean come on that doesn't make any sense! Saying "I'll give you $50 for your silver" when its been going for $200 is just the dealer trying to get a good deal. No one is forcing the other guy to sell it at $50. But, if that's what its worth in the seller's mind, then they both complete the transaction and leave happy. This type of thing happens all the time on ebay and no one thinks its wrong at all... in fact we applaud people who get nice coins at a fraction of "FMV". There are of course gray areas in ethics always but in general a lowball offer is not morally wrong. Remember precious metals are only worth what people are willing to pay, and that value is free to change based on whatever beliefs or disbeliefs people may have. FMV is just a general idea, not something written in stone that people have to abide by. Just how I look at it... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
500 Posts |
Preying on others ignorance is just not justifiable. To claim "they should know" is unbackable. No one is an expert at every field, so there is a chance that anyone can get ripped off when they happen to go outside their expertise zone. That's why I mentioned the golden rule. Do you feel "I deserved to be ripped off" when it happens to you? Or your mom? wife? kids? I don't think it is "explained away as dog-eat-dog" in any sense.
Is it okay for a street vendor to charge a "slow kid" $20 bucks for flowers that they charge $5 for to everyone else? That too is "maximizing profit", right? Ethics are in short supply! Lowballing the ignorant and profiling them just is not ethical business practices. Doesn't matter who is doing it and who is the "mark". As I said, maybe tomorrow it is YOU! Not cool!
At a coin show last week I saw an elderly man hand a dealer a wad of cash and ask him to take out what he owed him. The dealer could have easily taken an extra 20 or two and the guy wouldn't have known it. He didn't but it really does bother me that for some of you had he taken advantage that would have been "okay". That predatory kind of attitude is offensive. And to me, offering 10X was just as heinous an attempt to rip off as stealing is. That it "works on some" doesn't justify it. And when the owner lies and says they don't do it and that I must be lying? That crosses the ethics line completely, IMO.
JMHO
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
Quote:
There is a line between making a profit and a legit bargain and crossing over to preying on others ignorance or innocent mistake. I think way too many people cross that line these days and that makes the whole hobby suffer - and mistrust ABOUND. It is a bit sad really. But keep justifying ripping off old ladies and kids and newbies, ethics be damned. Quote:
At a coin show last week I saw an elderly man hand a dealer a wad of cash and ask him to take out what he owed him. The dealer could have easily taken an extra 20 or two and the guy wouldn't have known it. He didn't but it really does bother me that for some of you had he taken advantage that would have been "okay". I'll tell you what I find offensive. Someone who obviously has no idea of what goes into running a business decides he knows everything about what is & isn't an acceptable profit margin, expounds on it repeatedly & then makes totally uncalled for & derogatory remarks about people who don't agree. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3692 Posts |
Beware of those places advertising that "gold is at an all-time high" and who don't update their commercials in years or use other gimmicks like dancing ladies or costumes the way car dealers sometimes do.
There are generally two ways of selling. Playing dumb or playing smart. If you can play smart and still get the price you were looking for then you know you've found a good place to sell. If you play dumb you also have to expect them to treat you the same.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
561 Posts |
Quote:
I'll tell you what I find offensive. Someone who obviously has no idea of what goes into running a business decides he knows everything about what is & isn't an acceptable profit margin, expounds on it repeatedly & then makes totally uncalled for & derogatory remarks about people who don't agree.  Not sure I could have come up with a better response. Thank you! You sumed up my feelings perfectly. |
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Replies: 21 / Views: 3,360 |
Posted 06/14/2012 11:45 am
