1936 Question? - Page 2 - Coin Community Forum

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cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 06/19/2012 2:37 pm Appreciate the info Rob! I have the Mint Reports ... from 1936 through to 1960, no missing years... 1961 to 1969 are on their way to me as I write this... Also have access to several issues from the 1800's, starting with 1870... Can't afford to shell-out the quoted $1,000's plus for the 1908 to 1930 reports at this time... Already have the 1931 and am still looking for the 1935, as I understand it, there are no 1932, 1933 or 1934... Perhaps it is best that we agree to disagree on the matter of Mint report completeness... dts... Report this Post to the Staff
cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 06/19/2012 3:55 pm Fair enough dialog_gvf ... how rude of me to ignore the direct question(s) presented... >> You asked about the existing physical entities, not the story... The story behind the Pittman dot coins, is as important as the coins are themselves, as the two are a packaged deal ... whether you believe this to be true or not, does not change what I believe... >> You asked if the Pittman 1c/10c dot coins are Fakes or Back-door jobs... I do have an opinion on the coins and one that is based on the story associated with the coins ... I believe them to be Spurious... Perhaps information will come forward in the future, that will change my viewpoint on the Pittman 1¢ & 10¢ ... but it seems very unlikely that it will at this point-in-time, as nothing has presented itself in over ten-years now... >> You asked about the 25c dot coins and wanted to know if I believed they are the result of a pit on the die... Pits on dies before 1944, being used as a blanket reasoning to dismiss all ... is just plain old-school in my opinion... I see no reason at this time ... to believe anything is amiss with the business-strike 1936 25¢ dot coins... >> You asked if the possibility exists that I have no opinion, based on lack of information... I'm filled with opinions, based on the information that I do have... >> You asked about comparing what to what, in relation to the comparative studies done... I purchased coins and compared one coin to another ... the purpose for doing so ... was to find any differences that might exist on said coins of the same denomination... Hopefully, I have answered all of you questions to your satisfaction... dts... Report this Post to the Staff
54dollarcoin Valued Member Canada 475 Posts	Posted 06/19/2012 5:35 pm Dean mint reports are indeed great research tools, but are not necessarily 100 per cent correct. They never show what went out the back door or what was made to order for a numismatic associate of a mint employee. Looking over my 1966 and 67 mint reports there is no mention of triple strike or flip strike dollars, diving geese, or 1966 mule Silver dollars with small beads! The 1936 DOT cent and ten cent coins look so different from the circulation REGULAR issues it is laughable. I have a theory that might be plausible. The 1936 DOT 25 cents were required and issued in either January or February 1937 and the punch used to create the dot was used to strike up some cents and ten cents late in the dark of night. The very few pieces were then backdoored by a mint official a la the 1913 US liberty nickels. Report this Post to the Staff
cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 06/20/2012 1:39 pm Appreciate the input 54dollarcoin! Can't disagree, that the Mint Reports don't record "back-door" activities... Your theory on the 25¢ ... is as feasible as any that I have come-up with... dts... Report this Post to the Staff
WCP Valued Member Canada 56 Posts	Posted 06/20/2012 7:09 pm cbu Vary interesting mystery to solve is it not!! May I try to interject my opinion on the 36 dot and please correct me if I am wrong on some of the points. King George V dies Jan 20 1936 , mint needs to still keep production going, so protocol says to mark coinage with special mark until new dies arrive. Having made the specimens first and then on to business strike next but holding off to release coinage, OTTAWA looks at changing design with rumors of King Edward V111, Abdicating on Dec 11 1936. With new King George V1 as head of state it would work out with the release of a redesign coinage. With the order to remelt said coinage and start with new design. Opportunity presented itself for possible profit of specially marked coins, but fell through as none of the business strikes where released into circulation.To add that he did in fact die in 1936 so coins would not have to change until 1937 and with the abdication in Dec mint could put new coin design into circulation. Then in my opinion coin are of no value. Value just based on hear say info or lack there of by Mint Master of the time. What do you all think? Report this Post to the Staff
cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 06/21/2012 09:06 am Have to agree that it is an interesting mystery... Appreciate the input WCP! ... a nice read indeed! "protocol says to mark coinage with special mark until new dies arrive ... WCP" You may well be on to something here, in so much as there are found to be Canadian coins with dots on them in other years ... all of which are at a Transitional-Point with our coinage-proper and/or the Monarchy (title changes included). 1936 does have the 1¢, 10¢, 25¢ & 1$ business-strikes with a dot ... Monarchy transitional change... 1943 does have the 5¢ business-strike with a dot ... coinage transitional change... 1947 does have the 5¢ business-strike with a dot ...Monarchy Title transitional change... 1952 does have the 1¢ business-strike with a dot ...Monarchy transitional change... 1964 does have the 5¢ business-strike with a dot ...Monarchy Portrait transitional change... Great stuff WCP! dts... Report this Post to the Staff
SPP-Ottawa Moderator Canada 10463 Posts	Posted 06/21/2012 09:32 am Have you thought about getting high-resolution SEM imagery of those 'dots' to prove that they are in fact, the result of a punch, rather than a serendipitous die chip? "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US My eBay store Report this Post to the Staff
cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 06/21/2012 10:00 am Can't say that the thought ever crossed my mind Roger... Curious as to why you would even present such a question? dts... Report this Post to the Staff
SPP-Ottawa Moderator Canada 10463 Posts	Posted 06/21/2012 10:27 am The flow of metal into the dot depression should be uniform with a round dot punch. Most die chips are not perfectly round and do not have uniform (negative) relief on the die, and that would be reflected in how the metal flowed into the 'dot'. SEM (scanning electron microscopy) should be able to show this, with additional optical tools like cathodoluminescence for contrast (if necessary). "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US My eBay store Report this Post to the Staff
cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 06/21/2012 10:33 am All sounds very scientific... Didn't you do this procedure with a business-strike 1936 1¢ with a dot under the date ... or was that someone else? dts... Report this Post to the Staff
SPP-Ottawa Moderator Canada 10463 Posts	Posted 06/21/2012 10:57 am That was someone in Calgary, if I recall. Definitely not me. "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US My eBay store Report this Post to the Staff
cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 06/21/2012 11:07 am Makes sense then ... someone from Calgary helps to explain something from the past... Believe I've seen the coin in person... Think I'll skip the scientific thing... Nice thing about the dot coins listed and others not listed ... any hobbyist can find examples for their collection or for scientific experimentation if they so choose... dts... Report this Post to the Staff
dialog_gvf Pillar of the Community Canada 1581 Posts	Posted 06/23/2012 01:02 am For Americans, the back-door stuff extends to restrikes after the rarity of something becomes apparent. e.g. http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...-temaa062112 Quote: "As business strikes of the 1852 dollar were recognized as rarities at an early date, the 'Midnight Minters' set about restriking Proofs of these coins, probably as early as 1858 and until mid-1860, when Director James Ross Snowden seized the dies and sealed them in a carton. When Director Henry Richard Linderman opened the carton in 1867, more may have been restruck. Several reverse die varieties exist, suggesting restriking on different occasions." "Midnight Minters". Luv it. Report this Post to the Staff
nickelsguy Pillar of the Community Canada 2301 Posts	Posted 06/23/2012 08:30 am There are many examples of "the story of the day" being passed down through the years until they are accepted as fact when they turn out to be nothing but myth. When Dean asks for proof about the dot coins, none can be given except the FACT that the Specimen (so called) do not resemble the circulation strikes. When they were made will always be open to debate. The RCM is of no use in any FACT finding endeavor as they do not have a clue and could care less. Released paper work is always incomplete and constantly contradicts itself. I will use the 1908 5 cents Lg 8/8/8 as an example. I had THE FIRST one acknowledged about 5 years ago. SPP and a few others on this forum held the coin. One dealer with influence at PCGS stated it MUST be a SPECIMEN STRIKE even tho the coin itself had the "re-punching" as well as the rims and legends of the circulation strikes. The supporting report from 1909 acknowledging the fact that specimen dies were refurbished and used for circulation strikes was quickly dismissed by one dealer of influence. Moral here IMO Many accepted facts about certain coins have NO SUPPORTING FACTS except he said she said because they were almost there last week.............Keep looking Dean. A memo or something from the mint will one day surface ending the debate over the 1936 dot coins once and for all.......but wait......will any one question the authenticity of the memo......LOLOL Report this Post to the Staff
54dollarcoin Valued Member Canada 475 Posts	Posted 06/23/2012 11:31 am To add Nickels guy . Many of the Silver dollars of 1939 and some of the very interesting 1947 DOT dollars are examples of specimen dies being used to strike circulation coins. Die steel was very expensive for the RCM and dies were used until just about useless in some cases. Report this Post to the Staff
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