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 Replies: 47 / Views: 10,376 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
1802 only had two reverse dies, this coin does not match either one of them. It comes close to rev A (B-1, 4, and 6) but the star position relationships are wrong.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Its a counterfeit using a transfer die process in my opinion. XRF analysis of these high end types from my studies over the last year revealed three major alloys being used: Fe/Ni, German Silver (Cu/Zn/Ni) and Brass with trace silver (i.e., normally 1-5%). They may use actual coins or other counterfeits in the die transfer casting process. One tell tale sign is a magnet but the Fe needs to be >40% for its to be magnetic if its a Fe/Ni alloy. Normally under high magnification you will top of the letters appearing to be irregualr or ROUGH as if pulled off a casting die. Sometimes there is a break in the rim for the same reason as the coin breaks away from the mold. This type of casting is so advanced it appears as if the coin is struck. See here:
http://www.jinghuashei.com/
These guys are the best Chinese counterfeiters I can find. There coins never tone to silver alloys (i.e., blue or black)and check the rims. If a coin is 100-200 years old the rims will not be smooth. More often than not they will not work the rims to make them appear old and the rim edges are sharp.
If you contact me I can do a surface XRF analysis on this coin. If it's 90-92% silver and everything else checks out perhaps a trip to PCGS/NGC is warranted of just take a chance. Slim possibility in my opinion. Look at STATES see that irregular surface I was talking about on the SURFACE of the letter motifs ...
John Lorenzo
United States
These links are being deliberately "broken" so they won't see traffic coming from this site.
Edited by colonialjohn
09/14/2012 10:31 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts |
By the way, Jinghuashei IS the Big Tree Coin Factory (that's the ebay name of the guy who owns it). And colonialjohn, just to clarify, if XRF analysis determines silver, you're suggesting there is still a "slim possibility" of... what? That a previously unknown die variety (both obverse and reverse) of draped bust dollar, produced with number punches evidently never used at the Mint before or since, has surfaced in the People's Republic of China? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4337 Posts |
even this one looks different than the one that started this post...
http://www.jinghuashei.com/uploadimage/product/1091021194256735.jpg
These links are being deliberately "broken" so they won't see traffic coming from this site.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts |
The one thing they do provide is variety:
http://www.jinghuashei.com/uploadimage/product/1091320224086327.jpg
See?
These links are being deliberately "broken" so they won't see traffic coming from this site.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7840 Posts |
I just re-read the OP title "fake counterfeit"...does that mean it's real...a fake counterfeit? Kinda like a real counterfeit would be just that? Whew, I am tired and need a nap.  Edited by oih82w8
09/14/2012 4:01 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2077 Posts |
I suppose if they made copies of common restrikes, those would be fake counterfeits.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1796 Posts |
Or copies of Henning nickels... Or a reproduction 1900 Micro-O Morgan or...
...Ok I'll shut up before someone swats me. :-)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Philadelphia - if surface XRF analysis indicates 90-92% silver or higher (i.e., silver surface enrichment effect as per L. Beck) then it would be prudent to possibly have it third party slabbed. Silver during this time period should also have trace gold below 0.1% as a diagnostic and lead also at at trace levels from the cuppelation process.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Quote:
One tell tale sign is a magnet but the Fe needs to be >40% for it to be magnetic if it's a Fe/Ni alloy. However, both iron and nickel are highly magnetic so the percentage of iron won't matter. FYI US nickels aren't magnetic at 25% nickel, but older Canadian nickels are (~pure nickel). The patina on the OP's coin doesn't look quite like silver--does it?  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
HMMM ... interesting about nickel at higher levels. On these Chinese Fe/Ni fakes most of the composition is Fe/Ni with the other elements being less than 5%. But will consider this on further evaluations. Thanks. JPL.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2077 Posts |
Is the density of this alloy anywhere close to 90% silver? If not, wouldn't a weight check be a dead giveaway, assuming that they didn't compensate by making the planchet thicker or thinner?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Yes the weight of course is always a good check. Most often its less than the regal weight but sometimes compensated by introducing lead into the alloy. Its variable ...
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New Member
United States
3 Posts |
Funny, I have the EXACT same counterfeit. Even has the exact same scratches on the reverse, bad date, and bad "B" in liberty. Bought it online ( ebay) about 7 months ago for $250.00 when I first got into silver dollars. Wanted to send it back but didn't trust the crook seller for refund, so I decided to keep it as a conversation piece and learning tool!! I have weighed it and measured it, it is EXACT to original. I had the metal composition checked also. It is 91.55% Silver, 7.34% Copper with zinc lead and nickle making up the rest. The counterfeiter is pretty sophisticated!! |
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Replies: 47 / Views: 10,376 |
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Posted 09/14/2012 09:04 am
