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 Replies: 17 / Views: 2,986 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2797 Posts |
Had a less than delightful experience at the St Louis show this past Saturday. Only one table would let me look through a box of Morgans. The others would ask "Are you a Vammer?" Upon saying yes, they said "move along!" That will be my last show in St Louis. I came home and logged into my VAM Playground, ebay and found an 1878 7/8 TF VAM 44 on the first page! That's the King of Vams, folks. I've never seen one listed in the five years I've been searching. It had a couple of bids and was ending in 6 days. When I checked Sunday morning it was ended (no longer available). Someone had made the seller an off-EBay offer. Last night I tried again and found a nice looking 1878 with a B1 reverse that looked odd. I couldn't match it to anything listed ... I took about 10 minutes comparing it to the small list of B1 Vams: 70, 79, and 80-86. It had the characteristics of an 80/81 but had a complete (not polished ear). It also had the obverse clash of the 86, but not the other pups. It had a BIN so I hit it and was about 30 seconds too late! I downloaded pics of this one and will post them for analysis after a bit of time has passed.  What's a Vammer to do? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
797 Posts |
Wow, thats a bit rude for dealers at a show to turn you away like that. If they really care about their VAM's, why dont they take the time to identify them on their own. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
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What's a Vammer to do? Keep Vamming of course. Next time you're asked at a show if you're a Vammer the correct answer would be "what's that?" and proceed to look at the piles of Morgans.  Are you really in the market for a VAM44? I would need to sell my left kidney and then some to afford one of those (at least one in a grade I could look at and enjoy)... I look forward to seeing pictures of that B1 hybrid. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
I have had those same experiences (except for the one at a coin show since we just don't have them around here) and it really does frustrate you at times. I believe the worst part is going to another site and seeing a conversation about the very coin you wanted and even though you know how they went around the rules to get it they do not seem to want to indulge that information to every other person patting them on the back
Oh yeah and you know I am awaiting patiently on the pictures of the B1.....Have you posted them yet?
how about now?
are they on here yet?
whats taking so long?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2797 Posts |
Ken, The pics are at home and I'm at work. I wanted to wait a few days to protect the buyer (not me). If I posted and the seller recognized his/her coin the consequences wouldn't be good. That coin really had me intrigued ... a set of die cracks on the reverse similar to the 80, but not as complete as the 80/85/86, long nock, detached leaves (not 83 or 84), very open nostril (not 82) and complete ear fill (not 80/81/85/86). There was no doubling in RIB or left stars, so not a 70 or 79. My first take was an early die state for the 80/81 until I saw the ear ... not even close! The coin appeared to be high AU and possible BU. I promise to Get 'er Done when the time is right.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1721 Posts |
My expression when I get VAM frustrated: GOD VAM-IT. I spent Friday night going through 7 Morgans and putting them into a VAM attribution. It took me about 5 hours to do 4 coins and then it turned out I was wrong on the 4th. SsuperDdave squared me away with that one. The next day I spent around 2 1/2 hours ID-ing the remaining 3 Morgans. Since my VAM knowledge is so nominal, I try to buy the coin, not the VAM. Then I search for the VAM after I get the Morgan. This has been one of the most eye-opening experiences. One of these days I hope to be able to be a better VAM hunter. But for now, I'm just a bargain hunter. |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
I understand your frustration, SeatedNut, but it isn't like you haven't already had a meal or two at this table.  The root cause of dealers refusing VAMmers is that they don't want to throw away value which they don't have the time to discover on their own. They've somehow rationalized that if you buy the coin first, and then discover it's a value-added VAM, it's OK. Otherwise, you're just someone taking up space at their table and other potential customers will walk by rather than bother you doing your thing. Oh, and pics of that B1 or it didn't happen. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7840 Posts |
I can see myself doing the VAM search thing coming up in May in OKC. I just have to remember; "VAM? What's that?"Edited by oih82w8
02/19/2013 2:00 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts |
SuperDave, With all due respect that you rightly deserve as you've helped me and countless others, your comments as to the "root cause" of dealers refusing to deal with Vammers is an extremely rude and disrespectful statement and IS NOT the main reason for turning away some VAM clients. |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Then what, beside the two theories I proposed above, would be the reason why a dealer would turn away a potential client? Do they turn away Bust Half seekers who wish to determine the Overton number before they buy?
If I showed any generalized disrespect, well, so be it. It's happened to me more than once, and in the experience of VAMmers I know it's more prevalent than not. And (as I mentioned), had I been searching for Busties or early copper or early Dollars, it would be taken for granted that I wanted to determine the variety first.
But when it comes to Morgans, dealers don't want you to know. I'm not accusing you of that; I don't think you're the type. There are exceptions.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2797 Posts |
1893S, Sometimes the truth is not pretty. But it does not change the fact that they do not like to sell a coin to those who have knowledge making it more valuable than their asking price. They have no problem selling it to a regular Joe who sees it as they do. There's no disguising our intent because we must closely examine the coin to confirm the VAM. Those regular Joe' just give it an eyeball. As soon as my loupe comes out and I examine more than one coin ... I'm a Vammer. If they ask I will not lie. There's a buzz on the floor from Vammers on which tables to avoid. That buzz it growing exponentially. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2797 Posts |
OK guys, here are pictures of the two coins that are causing my funk. The first is the Unknown B1 reverse 1878. I also eliminated the 7/0 Varieties (Vams 30, 31, and 45). Am I hallucinating here? The closest match is the VAM 86, but it lacks some pups and the Obv clashing is off. Your thoughts? Here's the Reverse  The Obverse  Here's the VAM 44 that was listed for about 24 hours Reverse  and Obverse  |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
That B1 is fascinating. Full ear yet no nostril. 81/82-esque overpolished/engraved wing feather ala 1878-S. Not 86-ish; that one had a more complete nostril on the next die marriage - 22A & B. Wish I had this one. Gut says we'll see it at VAMworld soon. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9792 Posts |
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Are you really in the market for a VAM44? I would need to sell my left kidney and then some to afford one of those (at least one in a grade I could look at and enjoy)... You think it's bad? I turned down a chance to purchase one at the first "TOP 100 VAMs" ANA Summer Seminar in an ANACS small holder, graded MS63DMPL for $2750.00 DOH!  I don't think there are many above 63 from any TPGs to this day, and that was back in 1996 right when Dr. Fey and Jeff Oxman published their Top 100 book, so there was a thought, that quite a few more would turn up, as collectors started searching them out, they did but only a few. (yeah I had the money to buy the v44 just thought it was pretty nicked up and not an entirely nice looking Morgan v44 or not, might have really been a MS62 but was DMPL and that made the hits and ticks all that much worse appearing. What do you think a MS63 DMPL would bring today? "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
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What do you think a MS63 DMPL would bring today? That one is, I think, still the Condition Census coin for V44. Well north of $30k, I should say. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
the first thing I noticed is the nostril is almost all the way gone like the VAM-84, the reverse now I am not real sure about. The arrow shaft looks a little short to me as well. I am getting ready to take my daughter to school and have a few more things to take care of this morning before I can really study it but you are right this one is very intriguing
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Replies: 17 / Views: 2,986 |
Posted 02/19/2013 1:10 pm
