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 Replies: 46 / Views: 4,751 |
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Forum Mom
 United States
5877 Posts |
I reported it also under my COINAF01 user id. I also emailed the seller. The problem is, even if he's NARU'd by ebay, he's just going to keep coming back with different id's. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1283 Posts |
ebay needs IP Ban capabilities.
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Valued Member
United States
90 Posts |
ebay is full of fraud. They know it, but won't do anything about it even if you find the perpetrator. The best advice for ebay is to read as much as you can about their policies and their misdeeds to protect yourself. A great site for this is www.theauctionguild.com
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Forum Dad
United States
24176 Posts |
quote:
Ebay is full of fraud. They know it, but won't do anything about it even if you find the perpetrator.
Morganator, do you have a source for this extremely outlandish statement or are you the expert? The reason I ask is, I get auctions killed every day with little effort. Every single auction I see during the course of a day that is breaking the rules, I report. Takes about 30 seconds per listing. I have about a 95% success rate, far from "They won't do anything", I would say. As scumbuster said, I have seen reported auctions killed in as little as 15 minutes. It's time for everyone to start being proactive instead of reactive. If everyone here reported one coin listing a day instead of having the much more common attitude like yours , it would be a tremendous start. All you have to do is use the form in scumbusters signature to start getting things done. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts |
The problem, though, bobby, is that you have to make any effort at all. ebay is shirking its responsibility by relying on the altruistic nature of the numismatic community to do the job they should be doing. By allowing those listings to be placed at all without prior review is simply ebay's way of evading the cost that would be incurred by doing what ought to be done. By maintaining its status simply as a "pass-through" mechanism, ebay becomes a willing participant in the frauds perpetrated on its bandwith. What about the listings we all miss? There are 210609 or so listings in coins and paper money right now. Have you looked at all of them? What about Tiffany jewelry? Handbags? When ebay removes a listing, they demonstrate that they do care somewhat about the listings that appear on their site. But it should only rarely have to get that far. There are so many more things ebay has chosen NOT to do to stop the listings from appearing in the first place, that I have to agree with the Morganator that ebay is designed to allow, actually encourage, fraud. ebay will continue to do less than is necessary only until someone else can challenge them. I hope it's sooner, but it will probably be later. |
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Forum Dad
United States
24176 Posts |
quote:
The problem, though, bobby, is that you have to make any effort at all.
I have no problem investing a few minutes a day to make it a safer place. In fact that's why I devote 14 hours a day to this website. quote:
EBay is shirking its responsibility by relying on the altruistic nature of the numismatic community to do the job they should be doing.
They're actually taking more responsibility every day. Reports used to go ignored for the most part. quote:
By allowing those listings to be placed at all without prior review is simply ebay's way of evading the cost that would be incurred by doing what ought to be done.
They're starting to do that now, if a listing has a "high fraud" word in it, it is mainstream delayed for review. Sellers are furious and actually leaving. This is something that's easy to say, but almost impossible to do. Sellers' are angry about the fees now, if every listing was reviewed they would at least quadruple and there would be no more sellers and no more ebay. How would you feel if your 1 day auction didn't show up in search for 6 hours because it was flagged for review? You've lost 25% of your listing. Or they delay it from starting for 6 hours and now instead of ending at 8PM it's ending at 2AM? You got squat for your item, but you can be secure in the fact that ebay didn't determine it fraudulent. Let's face it, buyers have to take some responsibility for what they buy. There's sheisters everywhere, not just on ebay. quote:
There are 210609 or so listings in coins and paper money right now. Have you looked at all of them?
Of course not. But as I said, if everybody that has a whiny attitude about ebay fraud took the time they spent whining and reported one listing a day, it would be cleaned up in no time and they'd have extra time. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts |
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. My attitude is not intended to be whiny. But I don't run ebay and even though I report items all the time, I don't feel that buyers OR sellers should have to do the job I see ebay as only grudgingly moving toward doing. Of course the basic rule is "buyer beware." But since I've worked for and with a "real" auction house, I know the auctioneer/appraiser is responsible for much more than ebay appears willing to do, no matter how much "better" it's getting. In order to level the playing field, sellers may indeed have to change their expectations regarding quick sales. I have 120+ lots in an auction house right now. They've been there for weeks awaiting their auction date, which will be late next month. If you know the parameters going in, you make the necessary adjustments. The coin market is not the stock market and sellers should not be given the expectation that their item will be immediately listed as genuine simply because they warrant them as such. ebay can provide a range of options for sellers in the event their item is flagged for review. The time you spend on the coincommunity website makes for an overwhelmingly awesome experience. The time you spend reviewing ebay makes it slightly less difficult. The problems on ebay extend well beyond outright frauds and counterfeits; the variety of abominations (perhaps they should be called "aboncom-inations" is astounding and creates an absolute minefield for those new to the hobby. We want them to stay and enjoy the hobby and find your 37 honestly-described well-listed items. But there are 2290 items in coins and paper money that include the term "SGS." Taking out the outright frauds is the tip of the iceberg. You might slow the tide, but the Titanic is still going to take on water as long as ebay relies on volunteers and the good nature of the coin community. My patience, at least, is wearing mighty thin. Thank you for your fine work and your thoughtful responses. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
ebay could eliminate every auction that was fraudulent if they chose to. The problem is that in order to do so the listing fees would be incredibly high, and would probably include a flat rate of $5-10 for each item. Not a big deal for big ticket items, but who is willing to pay that much extra for a coin worth $5. I strongly believe the buyer needs to take some responsibility. I looked at an item yesterday, before bidding I did my standard feed back check. There were red flags throughout, but there were still several bids on the item. Who bids on an item from a seller that has feedback like the following: 1) Coin overgraded 2) Had to file claim with Paypal to get item 3) Coin sent NOT coin pictured in auction
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Forum Dad
United States
24176 Posts |
You're right, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I do have one question though, you state... quote:
But there are 2290 items in coins and paper money that include the term "SGS." Taking out the outright frauds is the tip of the iceberg.
Let's suppose you run an auction site and you kill all the SGS auctions because they're fraudulent. Now SGS sues you. Tell me how you prove fraud, when grading is an opinion and not fact. IMHO, you would lose that fight rather handily and ebay knows that. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts |
First, a quick point: If I ran an auction site, as you suggest, there would be no reason for me to prove fraud on the part of any seller. A seller like aboncom would simply be in violation of my Terms of Service. Unlike ebay, any site I ran would not put profits before ethics. But ethics and legality are completely separate issues, and perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly. I was trying to make a distinction between the outright frauds you have had success in combating and the shady--but still technically legal--sellers that clutter ebay with shiny garbage a la SGS. You are absolutely correct to defend aboncom's right to grade all his VF and XF junk as MS-70 and obviously people are fools to buy it for mint state prices. But just because something is legal doesn't make it right or even tolerable, and I believe those listings detract from yours and mine. What I'm talking about is the bigger picture. Of course coin collecting will survive the current ebay assault of the self-slabber and the overgrader and all of the other shadiness allowed to thrive there. But how many people will have to feel that crushing disappointment and leave the hobby before we can formulate concrete steps to ensure that the effects of such bad transactions are lessened? I'm the first to admit that I don't know exactly what ebay should do, but I'd rather see them do it proactively. Again, that's just me expecting more and knowing I'll be disappointed. I'd like to believe that my own self-interest will be better served by a healtheir marketplace, but I could be wrong about that too. Maybe we just need to accept the level of dishonesty we see and move on. Ultimately, there will need to be a consensus that there is an actual problem before anything gets done, and I guess that consensus is just not emerging. Edited by halfabustisbetter
05/11/2007 6:40 pm
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Forum Dad
United States
24176 Posts |
quote:
A seller like aboncom would simply be in violation of my Terms of Service.
What exactly would be the term they would violate. Now remember that ebay is a publicly traded company. Laws will supercede a TOS each and every time. Example >> Sellers that think because they put "Not responsible for uninsured items" in their listings that they're not, because an auction is a "legal and binding contract". Also, TOS violations in no way exclude you from lawsuits. Not even close actually. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts |
The statement was a hypothetical one. IF I ran a website, I could write rules that created a certification standard not for coins, but for certification companies. There would be no laws to supercede my terms of service. Since anyone is free to call a coin certified, there is no law saying that I have to accept that such coins are in fact, "certified." At my website, I am free to set any standard for certification companies I would like them to follow. If I determined that a company was "certifying" and marketing only their own coins, I would be more than free to call that a violation of my terms of service. As long as my rules applied to everyone and I was not using them to single out aboncom, but the set of all sellers who certify and market their own certified coins ("vertical sellers"), I would be perfectly within my legal right to disallow such sales as sales of "certified" coins. (For example, if a website HAD to allow sales from all certification companies, why don't Teletrade or Heritage feature SGS certified coins?) Any website can set rules that must be followed by participants regardless of whether such actions would be "legal." If legality were the only issue, then ebay would have to allow sales of lots of things that are not sold or are no longer sold on the site. ebay could mandate rules today that tightened up the use of the term "certified" and every coin listing could be linked to an explanation of "certification." The incentive in a publicly traded company is to not have standards or rules that apply, simply because profits are the most important thing to shareholders. The fact that SGS certified coin sales now fall within the current rules has nothing to do with whether they are legal or ethical, but whether they create profits. Rules will only change when profits are affected, and ebay probably gets sued twice a day, so lawsuits are not as big a deal as profits. Edited by halfabustisbetter
05/11/2007 11:07 pm
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
Unfortunately, the precedent has already been set. When they first added the certification item specific, they should have stated the grading companies that would be recognized. As I don't believe that ebay has any true numismatic experts on their team, no one would have been able to define what those companies were. As such, all coins stated to be certified by any "grading company" are considered certified by ebay. The major problem here is that ebay counts on reports from people who know numismatics because they do not have any experts in this field. In reality, they are an online flea market. The same way that the owner of a flea market location doesn't know what items the individuals are selling, so it's the same with ebay. They are starting to act on reports now which is definitely better than it used to be, but I do not believe that they can act on their own since they simply do not have the knowledge. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts |
You make some good points and ebay has definitely missed some chances. But they have made changes in other areas (Nazi propaganda for example); the only obstacles are the cost and the will. This, for example, should never have been allowed to be listed, and is not something that requires an expert: http://cgi.ebay.com/PRESALE-2007-P-...AR_W0QQitemZ300110437780QQihZ020QQcategoryZ149688QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Edited by halfabustisbetter
05/11/2007 9:38 pm
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Moderator
 United States
6563 Posts |
quote:
But they have made changes in other areas (Nazi propaganda for example)
Alright I am in the dark on this one. Would you mind elaborating on this please? |
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Replies: 46 / Views: 4,751 |
First Page
Posted 05/10/2007 5:55 pm
