A 1903 Indian Head Penny With A Double Die Reverse

That looks to be classic "Longacre" doubling, it doesn't add any value to it.

https://goccf.com/t/123829
Check out the discussion previously about the same subject.

1) It is doubleD die.
2) That is, as stated, Longacre doubling, no added value

williandres99,
The proper place to send a thank you is in this thread.

The Longacre doubling can occur on other denominations, not just the cent. For the Indian cent, it most often occurs on the ONE CENT on the reverse. In fact, it is extremely hard to find an IHC with a perfect ONE CENT. There is almost always Strike Doubling, Die Deterioration, or longacre doubling. LD also appears often on the letters on the obverse.

I can't explain it, but the Longacre doubling will occur during a late die stage. There are several late die stage indicators that can't be accurately explained until you are familiar with them, or unless I'm working with someone one-on-one with an example to point it out exactly. One indicator are what I call "die stresses", where the fields in the die begin to break down and become rough.

The pic that Dave H posted has been posted here probably a hundred times. But, it doesn't have Longacre doubling. It would be nice if it were included.

I've seen it on Seated halves, where it seems to occur around the stars frequently on the obverse. I'm pretty hardcore into IHCs and Flying Eagles, so I don't look at other coins from this era very often.

From what I understand, Longacre doubling was a technique to extend the life of used dies. Also, it was my understanding that it was done by the engraver, and not by the hub. How could a reducing lathe put Longacre doubling on a die without that doubling being on the hub?

Also, how is it that the ONE CENT on the reverse of IHCs most often have LD, but not the other devices... whereas on the obverse it is on the letters around the rim? In essence, it was only done to the letters, and not the other devices. A reducing lathe turns, so if LD was done with a hub, it must have been started from the middle and stopped before it reached the wreath on the reverse of the IHCs. On the obverse, it must have been set outside of the portrait so that only the encircling letters were doubled.

LD is very crude, and varies with the die. It doesn't appear the lathe was reset such that it made the doubling. If it were, the doubling would be equidistant and uniform. In fact, it is very crudely done and varies wildly between dies.

Do you have references? I'll ask around myself. I'm interested to know for sure.

Thanks, Conder.

Longacre doubling can be found on the devices as well as the lettering, and it can also be found on proofs, which obviously are not the result of trying to extend the life of worn out dies.

I have been writing the occasional item about this form of doubling since the mid 80's before it even had the name Longacre Doubling. I developed my own theory back then of how it came about.

As we know it doesn't appear until after 1848 when Longacre had to create new designs for the gold dollar and double eagle. now unlike the earlier engravers Longacre did not get the appointment to the Chief Engraver position based on merit and ability. He got the post through political influence. Longacre was not a die engraver or die sinker, he was trained as a flat plate engraver for documents or banknotes and had no experience with three dimensional engraving. This was probably why his first patterns for the gold dollar were made by actually hand engraving the gold planchets.

At that time dies were being made by full hubbing, and the hubs were made from a master die. But how was that master die created? The mint did not have a reducing lathe until after 1858. Breore that time the central device punch was hand engraved, hardened and then used to sink the main device of the master die. The rest of the letters, stars, etc were then punched into the master die by hand. When the master die was finished it would be hardened, polished and could then be used for making full hubs. This was where I think the Longacre doubling first appears. In odred to make a good die you have to sink the features not only fully, but evenly. The letters and stars all need to be impressed to the same depth or it would be noticeable. But Longacre was not experienced with die sinking. I believe he deliberately made his punches with a shoulder around the features. Then when the die was being sunk once the image of the shoulder started to show on the die you knew the feature or device was sunk to the proper depth. And when the working dies were basined, when the shoulders disappeared you knew the dies were basined properly and the features were at the proper depth.

Since the sinking and basining were not consistent or even, the doubling often appears crude and uneven. But on early die states of some dies the doubling can be seen to be sharp and even around the letters either following the contours of the letters, or in some cases being a square or retangular block around the letter. I have seen examples of early state dies with even doubling all the way around the letters, and the same die in a later state (identified by the same die cracks on both in later stages on the later) with the doubling being weak and uneven around the letters due to wear and/or polishing.

After Longacre died and new designs were introduced Longacre doubling disappears. But Longacre designs that were used long after his death still tend to show the doubling. I suspect this is due to master dies and working hubs on hand still being used years later. Because any design modified after the mint got the reducing lathe, and longacres death in 1869, should have been created from a full model with all of the features and no shouldering would have been needed. (You will also not that designs by Barber or Morgan do not come with Longacre doubling. If the doubling was the result of reworking the dies to extend their life, why only rework Longacre design dies and not the Barber and Morgan designs as well?)

Drsandman2, did you ever locate the IHC that very clearly exhibited Strike Doubling and longacre doubling at the same time? I'd be very interested in seeing those photos.

Thanks.