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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
I have published the section from the Criminal Code of Canada numerous times. I have shown/told people on every chat board to which I am a member (including here). Apparently some missed it or just do not believe it. Here is paragraph (used with permission) from a warning letter sent by Sgt. Tony to a seller of counterfeit coins. Please note the sentence in bold and then the "purpose" of the letter. Plainly put, it does not matter if it is stamped or not. Pretty simple. No gray area. Ignorance is no excuse. THEY ARE ILLEGAL! The following extract is used with permission from Sgt. Tony FARAHBAKHCHIAN. "During the past year, sellers from China have been selling Chinese made counterfeit coins on ebay. These coins are replicas of rare Canadian coins from the turn of the Century and beyond. Unfortunately these coins have fooled many unsuspected buyers, who were led to believe the coins were genuine numismatic rarities, worth thousands of dollars. Some coins have even been stamped by the seller as "replicas". The purpose of this letter is to inform ..... that it is illegal to bring these coins into Canada. Immediate attempts shall be made to stop these individuals from selling such coins through ebay. Section 450 of the Criminal Code of Canada (2009 Edition) makes it an offence to Possess Counterfeit Money. It sates the following: "Every one who, without lawful justification or excuse, the proof of which lies on him, a) buys, receives or offers to buy or receive, b) has in his custody or possession, or c) introduces into Canada counterfeit money is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years." |
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Valued Member
Canada
227 Posts |
 There you go folks... when it comes to the law in Canada 'ignorance is no excuse' ... x'cept if your the Minister Of Justice.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
nickelsguy - after reviewing the law, I have to say I see nothing illegal about replicas/copies that are marked as such. I disagree with the remarks made by "Sgt. Tony", as he seems not to have an understanding of what counterfeit money is.
S. 448 defines counterfeit money as follows:
"counterfeit money" includes
(a) a false coin or false paper money that resembles or is apparently intended to resemble or pass for a current coin or current paper money,
(b) a forged bank-note or forged blank bank-note, whether complete or incomplete,
(c) a genuine coin or genuine paper money that is prepared or altered to resemble or pass for a current coin or current paper money of a higher denomination,
(d) a current coin from which the milling is removed by filing or cutting the edges and on which new milling is made to restore its appearance,
(e) a coin cased with gold, silver or nickel, as the case may be, that is intended to resemble or pass for a current gold, silver or nickel coin, and
(f) a coin or a piece of metal or mixed metals that is washed or coloured by any means with a wash or material capable of producing the appearance of gold, silver or nickel and that is intended to resemble or pass for a current gold, silver or nickel coin;
Subsection (b) deals with notes and isn't applicable.
Subsection (c) would be taking a nickel and altering it to pass as a quarter, which isn't the case here.
Subsection (d) deals with damaging/altering and isn't applicable.
Subsection (e) and (f) deal with altering coins to appear as gold/silver presumably for value, which isn't the case here.
The most relevant subsection to replica coins would be (a). If someone holds a 1921 50 Cent Piece that is marked "Copy" or "Replica" (and advertised as such), and is looking to sell it for say $20, it is not reasonable to say that they intended for the coin to resemble or pass as "the real deal".
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9865 Posts |
Quote:
...that resembles or is apparently intended to resemble or pass... Note the word "or".By most peoples reckoning coins with the word "COPY" incused,do indeed resemble real coins even though not intended to pass for real coins.We need a court to define "resemble" here.Someone will have to put this to the test,hopefully soon. "Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Edited by DBM
08/27/2013 9:32 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
2301 Posts |
I will not respond to your comment about Sgt. T. I am on a short leash on this website.
If a stamped replica or copy coin is tumbled and the word removed through manipulated wear, is it then a counterfeit coin? Can it be auctioned off? Oh wait......it has been done! But wait.....read the law, if it resembles a current Canadian coin it is COUNTERFEIT. Thus the scenario can not happen because the counterfeit is always that A COUNTERFEIT!
The law is plain. No where does it mention stamps or letters etcetc IF IT RESEMBLES.....no gray............no stamp....that is for the USA.
Edited by nickelsguy
08/27/2013 9:32 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
DBM, before the battle with ebay and then paypal Sgt. T. along with the CROWN put all their ducks in a row. They dotted the I's and crossed the T's. The words are as they are. Resemble is exactly that.......look like, etc, which ANY REPLICA OR COPY MUST BY INTENT! There is no gray area. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
not supporting or endorsing "COPY" coins, or any particular coin shop or ebay seller, BUT... whether illegal or not, I suspect the RCMP has bigger fish to fry than a local coin shop selling coins stamped COPY with no fraudulent intent, and I highly doubt anything would (or will) come of it other than maybe a firm scolding. Quote:
intended to resemble or pass for a current coin or current paper money, i wonder what the court's definition of CURRENT would be. $1 and $2 bills? large cents? NCLT? NewFoundLand coins? old tokens? none of these are really current (legal tender or not) |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
All coinage ever made by or for Canada remains "Current" including the province of Canada and any provinces having joined Canada. In order not to be current they must be DE-monitized. Never been done here.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
9865 Posts |
By their codes of ethics both the RCNA and the CAND would appear to endorse the sale and possession of coins marked "COPY".In all their years of existence,have they never sought a legal opinion of their codes of ethics? Or is this indeed a gray area? "Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
Nickelsguy - you are creating a gray zone when you start discussing the what ifs. I personally don't believe that a coin marked COPY does resemble, or intends to resemble a real coin. You need to consider what the intent of the section is. I can't imagine that the legislature was trying to prevent numismatists from having a clearly identified copy as a placeholder in their collection. Resemblance would mean the ability to pass for. If someone manipulated a copy to remove that word, in which case the coin may not be differentiable from a genuine example to a layperson. So long as the coin is marked, there is no chance of conviction.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
NFLD was a british colony until 1907 and a self governing dominion until 1949, but you're saying their coinage became "current" & considered "Canadian" (and treated as such legally) after they joined Canada?
not saying you are wrong, but it would make for an interesting argument for all pre-conferderation currency, how far back could you go and still apply current laws?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
Sorry for the repost, my phone does that. The RCMP doesn't make the law, that note doesn't meanmuch as there's no law that says that. Nor can I find any case law that says that
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
Wade - current is defined in the Criminal Code and I agree with nickelsguy interpretation of it.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
Wade, As a province joined Canada, the money was apparently accepted at par and equal. Falling under the Canadian Law. That is what I am led to believe from the Bank of Canada as well as the RCMP.
Edited by nickelsguy
08/27/2013 10:59 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1581 Posts |
Problem is, these "coins" are not minted with a excuse "copy". They are theoretically stamped after the fact. So the intent of the maker is clear.
Unless they are imported as replicas and the stamps are verified, then who knows what arrives.
Even if they are stamped, coin dealers importing these are encouraging production runs of the original counterfeits.
So conspiracy charges should be issued.
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Replies: 102 / Views: 14,682 |
Posted 08/27/2013 8:58 pm
