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Replies: 69 / Views: 7,716 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2632 Posts |
Looks and sounds intentional..  with justin3651 before we move into a whole new realm of errors.
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Valued Member
Canada
71 Posts |
That is one beautiful error SPP.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
632 Posts |
Knowing a bit about production in Ottawa, I can assure this can only happen on purpose
Either someone removed the anvil die, struck the first reverse, flipped the planchet and re-struck after protecting the first face or (more complicated because of how dies are lock) used 2 reverse dies.
I don't consider this coin to be an error, and I agree, it should be confiscated by the Mint (but will not)
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
I am going to come from 'left field'. There is a tiny kernel of skepticism in my mind. I only feel about 95% happy with this piece. It is that other nagging 5% that I am going to discuss here.
I would like to see a published opinion from the Mint on this piece. That is probably not available at this stage. Until that happens, the 5% doubt remains. It is for this reason that I would have no interest in this coin at auction, and I would feel obliged to warn others on a personal basis, what my grounds for doubt are.
I feel that there is a possibility that this may be a high quality 'shed job'. Charles M.Larson in his book Numismatic Forgery, shows how such a piece can be manufactured, with home made and hardened hubbed dies.
What led me to this thought is the fact that the 'reverse' of this double reverse error looks like to be the product of a 2nd generation hubbed die copy. The original for this could have been a well struck coin. Individual dies and hubs are normally re worked by the Mint, before being put to work. It seems that didn't happen in this case.
Genuine blanks can be obtained to facilitate such a 'shed job'.
Coins such as this one cannot be critically examined inside a slab, irrespective of the fact that the slab itself is genuine or not.
Edited by sel_69l 09/18/2013 8:53 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
743 Posts |
If the coin is being sold in Canada , can the mint just ask for it from the seller seeing as this would be mint property or a forgery .
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2428 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
743 Posts |
From my limited understanding it is illegal to own something that may have been illegally acquired from the mint. Wouldn't the seller know its a back door job or forgery and thus the reason ICCS probably refused to grade the coin.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
I would reason that although rarely, a dud coin in theory, could pass examination by a TPG. It would need to be very good. Some duds have even passed muster under examination by leading auctioneers and dealers. That is why leading auctioneers cover their butts by offering unconditional guarantees. Usually such items are withdrawn from sale, prior to auction because someone might have raised doubt, even if at a later time, the suppect piece has later proven to be genuine. Optimistically, I am 95% sure that this piece is genuine. Pessimistically, I am 5% sure that it isn't. That is why I think a professional investigation would be required. There could be a lot of money involved in this case.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
632 Posts |
I am quite convinced the coin is genuine. Also, I am convinced it is a backdoor job, not an error. Yes, TPGs sometimes slab duds. I know a few in NGC, and one in PCGS (Canadian coins) but this is not the c ASE
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Valued Member
Canada
334 Posts |
I wouldn't want this group sitting on a jury :-).
Why people automatically jump to its a back door job or a fake is beyond me .
The mint is just a factory that produces a high volume of goods . Stop holding it up to standards that no factory can meet . Mistakes happen and they will continue to happen . There is nothing to say that the die shafts that are suppose to be machined different were not accidentally ground wrong . All it would take is a reverse die improperly set in with the obverse dies and machined along with them .
I think it does the person owning the coin a great disservice to have his item flamed so much without any evidence at all that it came about by improper means .
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
632 Posts |
What evidence you want? Pictures of someone fabricating the error? Try visiting the Mint, tour the facilities and ask a couple of questions.
If you care to learn the process of fabrication of a coin, you will understand the difference between an error (accidental) and a backdoor job (on purpose)
I repeat: there is NO WAY this coin was manufactured by accident. Someone stopped the press, and altered the production process.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2428 Posts |
"All it would take is a reverse die improperly set in with the obverse dies and machined along with them."
I agree with that statement but there is something missing in it.... All it would take is a new reverse die and a slightly machined used die and a mint worker who doesn't realize that there are two reverse dies because its his/her first day on the job and they haven't been trained properly and they forgot their meds at home which prevents them from seeing double hence the reason for placing the second reverse die into its position. Its not possible IMO
Edited by darryldarryl 09/19/2013 11:10 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2739 Posts |
This coin was struck by two hammer dies. Mules involving two hammer dies are rarer than mules involving two anvil dies. That's because, in most presses, the neck of the hammer die is shorter than that of the anvil die. Any hammer die employed as an anvil die will not be able to rise high enough within the collar to bring the planchet in reach of the other hammer die. That is, unless, someone specially machined a hammer die with a longer neck. That's what I suspect happened here. There are some presses in which the dies are interchangeable and there are some countries in which you find coins in which the position of the dies is variable. Whether these are being struck on differently designed presses or presses that accomodate either die as the hammer die, cannot be determined. US coins from 1992 to 2005 can be found struck with both die installations. The years 1998 - 2001 are the peak years in which both die positions can be found in abundance. However, all evidence indicates that different brands and models of presses were used for the two positions and we're not dealing with interchangeable dies.
Error coin writer and researcher.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2632 Posts |
It appears nobody has asked the seller what he knows about the coin or the story behind it.
The seller states - " Most coin with 2 of the same side are Obverse, two reverse are the rarest and most are cents." I havent seen a coin yet so far with two obverse's except trick coins. I did see a vid on how to make this exact coin and it would be nearly impossible to tell that its not real.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
There is nothing wrong with asking the Mint to have a look at it! No skin off anyone's nose.
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Replies: 69 / Views: 7,716 |