Can I Trust Any "Red" Unslabbed Indians On Ebay?

I say go for a certifies one than at least you know how red it is and you get an honest trustworthy grade.

Personally, I would stay away from the reds. I think a nicely toned brown IHC is just as beautiful as a red. Also, for a given grade they are lot less expensive, and, as westcoin stated, you always have to worry about proper storage to keep a red from turning.

Here's my evaluation of the color of the 3 coins you posted:

1906 - color unknown; the image has been photoshopped

1903 - color most likely RB

1882 - color most likely BR

And the TPG's are no longer guaranteeing the color on the slab label will remain, PARTICULARLY Red.

This is a situation where if you could find a good coin show or a solid coin store, you could probably find something you would like for a reasonable price. Seeing color on copper coins in ebay photos can be very tricky (although possible with experience). If you are flexible on dates, I think you might be able to find something nice in the above venues.

Of the coins above, only the 1903 looks nice but I wouldn't probably pay the asking price. I haven't looked at Indians for awhile since I got the one for my 7070, but I feel like you should be able to find something nice in a 1900-1909 date for around $50.

My opinion is...outside of some kind of airtight guarantee--it's problematic to determine an original, undipped red IHC from pictures alone. Yeah--Rick Snow knows his stuff, but otherwise I'm wary of endorsing any particular dealer. I've bought a lot of IHCs for myself and other collectors, and each coin has its own story to tell--trust what you see, not what you're told.

igettings00: Pay very close attention to what Thundercoin said which is true at the big three (PCGS, NGC, ANACS) in that if a coin has some RED but it is LESS THAN 95% RED you will have a RED BROWN (RB) coin. That can bring up a wide spread in price. Now one problem with that is lets say somebody messages me an updated want list and they have a 1904 Indian cent in MS-64 RB on it and they've also got four other of the more available dates from 1890-1909 on it. Now the question is since this person is working on either a RB set of Indians or maybe just on that section (say from 1887-1909) is their set more Brown or Sunset Brown (very little red), or Sunrise (more RED). Because if I have or pick up that 1904 Indian cent in MS-64 RB at my next show and it's 80% RED some people will not want that coin if their set is an average of 50% RED because in this case the 1904 sticks out in the set. In my experience most copper collectors and especially on Indians and Lincolns like their set to match. Other people will love that 80% RED coin. What I see that's burning money is when someone pays full RED money for that 80% RED coin. Yes it is worth more than RB but it should not bring full RED money and I would not price it as such cause I know the big three would designate the color as RB any time of day any day of the week. Where it gets worse is on a better date like say an 1868 where now the spread will be at least a few hundred dollars. People get at auctions sometime and bid this stuff up thinking their getting a bargain and they are not. Before I close this post I need to add that you have to look at several Indians in RB and RED to get an idea at what original RED in any percentage is on an Indian cent.

jgettings00: I'm going to embellish a post westcoin has made (and do pay close attention to westcoin as he is certainly very knowledgeable in the business)

Westcoin wrote:
"Also keep in mind it may not always stay red, I've had quite a few turn from mostly red to almost completely brown in a matter of 9 months or so. Optimal storage conditions are a must, no humidity, and no light."

My response:
They can and do turn color . . . I ought to photograph one Lincoln I have. I could post pictures and say that it was MS-65 RED when I bought it - which is true - but some people would not believe that because the coin is now MS-65 RB and we are talking an RB that's closer to Brown rather than RED. Westcoin mentioned that you have to keep copper out of humidity and light. I did with this Lincoln and that didn't matter. Oh and should add that the dealer I bought this coin from had broken up an original roll. A little more on humidity. A fellow dealer I know lived in Hawaii for a few years after leaving California. During the whole time he lived there he refused to buy any RED copper because of Hawaii's climate. Once he moved back to California then he started buying REDs again.


Westcoin wrote:
Can you find them [a TRUE RED Indian cent one that has a minimum of 95% of the ORIGINAL RED] on ebay? Probably, (maybe 1 out of 100)..."

My response: that does hit the dartboard. While close to the bullseye I think it ma be too generous. 1 out of 100 to me is more like how many nice circulated Large Cents I see on an ebay auction that I think are nice enough to go after. I rarely see any original RED. Check out David Lawrence Rare coins. A few months ago they sold a collection of Lincoln Cents that was full RED --- they do sell a lot of 4-5 figure REDs. Does give you an idea as to what is original and what is not.

Westcoin wrote:
"but if it were me buying an IHC and I wanted a really nice one, I'd go to Rick Snow or Charmy "the penny lady" Harker.

www.indiancent.com
www.thepennylady.com

I guarantee you won't go wrong by purchasing a nice Indian cent from either of these two individuals. Rick Snow is not only a friend of mine, but the guy literally wrote the books on Indian Head cents and Flying Eagles. Charmy is a "newcomer" to dealing this past decade, she mentored under Rick and has some super material in her inventory. You won't find two more passionate, and honest IHC dealers around."

My response: If we were talking about current theological opinion in the Catholic Church the opinion of Francis I would generally be regarded as the most influential or important because he is the Pope. Now that "book" authored by Rick Snow that westcoin mentioned tells you how to attribute Indian cents for die varieties. It is well worth the money and Indian cents are Snow's specialty. It is like Wright's book called The Cent Book for Coronet Large Cents. This and the fact that Rick Snow has handled so many nice original breathtaking MS Indian cents over the years is why the numismatic community, myself included, values Snow's opinion over everyone else. Check out his website you don't want to miss that.

Charmy Harker -- I have met her and she is a very nice lady. You could check out her website also and check out her own personal collection of Lincolns and Indians. Also read her blog on what its like on the show circuit. Quite informative.

atchisonbj - Thanks for the comments on my post, I do think I may have been generous on the 1 out of 100 on ebay being true red coins, You are probably more correct it is more like 1000:1 ratio in un-slabbed coins.

I believe you on the Hawaii collector, and yes coins can change color even in the best storage conditions, mine weren't the best, and I had not kept an eye on them for several years, my own fault there. I too have had other coins turn ugly even in slabs in optimal storage, all you can do is provide a good environment for storage and hope for the best.

Charmy's show blog is a great read I just found it this past year, good stuff and fun reading!

As to Rick Snow - Pope of Indians? Not quite but he is a cardinal at least! Look for his Eagle Eye sticker on Indian Head cents, it's like a CAC (in fact I believe CAC may have got their idea from his Eagle Eye program. Rick has handled more high end and superb IHC's than most of us will see in a lifetime. He has shown me a few that literally knocked my socks off in the past, I didn't believe some dates could be so well struck with blazing luster, he has seen it all in the Indian cent trade.