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 Replies: 19 / Views: 5,739 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
I've brought these (and/or related pieces) up before... as has Bob, and probably others. They continue to pop up on ebay and elsewhere... Not the best fakes, but not the worst... produced within the last 15-20 years, I believe of Chinese origin ultimately but they have permeated the American market for a while now... and specimens of both have been included in Postal Commemorative Society packaging. First, the 1777 Mexico FF assayer... listed at the same time (same seller) as a specimen of the 1786 Lima 8R. Note certain production similarities between the two - in simple terms, the same "look" indicating a similar origin (you can analyze the specifics from there...). Note that the 1777 Mex's distinct FF reverse is also found paired with other obverses... one iteration is that ubiquitous 1776 FF, which of course doesn't exist. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1777-BOLIVI...271373670737http://www.ebay.com/itm/1786-Spanis...281246177952We then have (2) more examples of the 1786 Lima... both with more of the flat silver-grey (non-rim toned) look I've seen on most specimens of these. And yes, the 2nd one is graded NGC45: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1786-Spanis...201018121924http://www.ebay.com/itm/1786-Lima-M...221350059849 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3184 Posts |
Are you for sure these are fakes?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Realeswatcher did you see the fake ERIC P. NEWMAN GIII countermark Sheffield in the recent world Heritage sale in a NGC holder?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1962 Posts |
Edited by realeswatcher
01/15/2014 9:02 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...&lotNo=30681But, hey, those Newman NGC holders DO have a spiffy logo on them... How do neither NGC nor the Heritage cataloguer notice the worn-through plating? As I look more, another of the Newman GeoIII C/S 8R is also a contemporary counterfeit... Much more deceptive in terms at first glance in terms of execution, except for WHAT did they do with that date?! Actually a really interesting piece... I hadn't really looked carefully at the first (2) sessions - I might have nibbled at that. http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...&lotNo=30684
Edited by realeswatcher
01/15/2014 9:04 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
These British George III counterstamps seem to be a great playing field for CC collectors.
Fake counterstamps on real coins, real counterstamps on fake coins, fake counterstamps on fake coins - do real counterstamps on real coins also exist?
I guess one could write a complete book with studies of CC just about these issues alone!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
WOW! $1,410 for a Sheffield! This is the current world record even though the buyer is in for a big surprise a year from now after the ANS book comes out <VVBG>.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
DOS Mundos these are treated in the new ANS CC8R book ... we can only wait in anticipation.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Realeswatcher - I am no way in your league with Spanish Reales but I am starting to get into War of Independence Issues. Anyway for the Chihuahua casts as I have one up on E-Bay now a real one - one thing I noticed or I currently believe for a good mint stamp what Max Keech of Mexico Coin Company suggest we call them now since they are part of the production process - as in double struck coins within these stamp areas in the interior along the sides you must have FLOW LINES when viewed with a typical 15X loop. Its true on some of these double stamped 1811-1813 casts the inside stamps are way too dirty with crud but with a loop in certain areas flow lines should be evident. I guess I believe this is one method to show a good regal stamp. Its been my experience that fake countermarks or the WOI mint stamps or provisional counterstamps simply don't have this kind of pressure when stamping if a counterfeit. Check it out unless you already have a suggestion or thought to this idea on determining counterfeit stamp or real stamp ... I do find this even more challenging than West Indies ... at least there JUST plate matching worked pretty good JUST with your Pridmore reference.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
WOW! $1,410 for a Sheffield! This is the current world record even though the buyer is in for a big surprise a year from now after the ANS book comes out. A far cry from this (same type per the PDF catalog): http://legacy.stacks.com/Lot/ItemDetail/185674Seems like this auction generally brought out the pedigree chasers... I'll say this - anyone spending $1000+ on a old metal disc who can't tell what that is... they got what they deserve. Nevertheless, the point is that NGC/Heritage should be better than that... Quote:
War of Independence Issues - within these stamp areas in the interior along the sides you must have FLOW LINES... my experience is that fake countermarks or the WOI mint stamps or provisional counterstamps simply don't have this kind of pressure when stamping if a counterfeit. For another thread... and WOI is NOT my specialty (I have started to acquire some, but only the regal styles)... but I think that's a sound theory. Of course, as with any stamped issue (like West Indies, as you mentioned)... the more you see, the more you recognize the diagnostics of a proper mark. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Actually my good friend William Anton (Author: Forgotten Coins of the North American Colonies) use to deal a lot with both Christensen's (father & son). He had about 16-20 CC8R's and I did purchase them all. In 2008 I sold all of my COLLECTIONS through Stacks from 2008-2010 with my Cc8R's. I did keep two collections (Canadian Blacksmiths & Kleeberg CC2R,s). Anyway I sold these CC8R's privately since Stacks at the time would just group lot the bunch and Bob Gurney bought most on E-Bay. With this new GNL book I reloaded on them and have over 100 now - but yeah - Christensen came across them all the time - he had some real choice CC8R's that Stacks sold around 3-5? years ago that were his primary collection ... those went A LOT stronger than the recent Mike Ringo Stacks CC8R Baltimore C4 Sale group since they were GIII countermarked, generally more crude, better alloy combinations (i.e., silvering over copper or bronze) and in a higher net preservation grade.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
No these are all directly from Christensen? - all his non CC8R - not sure why it took so long to get to market? He died about 5-10 years earlier? Not sure - met him many times - lived in northern NJ - like me.
WOW - you reminded me of this DOS MUNDOS in a copper alloy!
EXTREMELY RARE!
I recently purchased one but NOW can't recall of a THIRD?
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
A couple more modern fakes: -- (2) versions of the same 1805 fake - one with "lustrous" surfaces, not processed to look somewhat worn; the other in an IGC slab, for whatever that's worth... http://www.ebay.com/itm/1805-8-Real...321293572619http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mexico-1805...370983201177-- an 1806 which uses the same reverse as the 1805 above http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mexico-1806...350973173008Note that this isn't to be Debbie Downer about everything on ebay. Much like the evening news, I'm only showing the junk... there's LOTS of good stuff on there and elsewhere. I will also note that I doubt that many (or even sometimes, any) of these sellers are offering these wittingly... Oftentimes they, like the buyers of such pieces, don't look carefully enough/don't know better. If it happens to a grading company, or to an auction house, it's DEFINITELY going to happen to some ebay peddlers. Knowledge is power; study the characteristics you see on these, compare to known genuine pieces, and go from there. Oh, and one more 1806, with rather ridiculous-looking (artificial) patination: http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Reales-18...261370124859Edited by realeswatcher
01/18/2014 05:21 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
realeswatcher a couple of the coins I handled from Berk's junk bin had similar coloration to the 1806 you show. It looked like someone had taken a shiny coin and fried it, or burned it in a fire. One of them was seriously underweight (11.5 g for a 4R) but the details were sharp and unworn.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Replies: 19 / Views: 5,739 |
Posted 01/15/2014 8:19 pm
