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 Replies: 37 / Views: 6,003 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
http://www.stacksbowers.com/archive...ctid=1434304That host IS clearly a mess, but it's not porous in the manner of the ebay piece... and those striations on the planchet of Lot #11179 are a good sign, also. I don't see anything legible of the date on that piece... just maybe a slight hint of something to the left (our left) of that divider dot.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
Its a strange piece with you alerting me to this date orientation like a KM-189. We do know of a FVI error - its true this piece looks a little porous and is a bit lighter than usually seen. But it makeup is of a regal issue it just looks different ... will keep checking the date orientation on other KM-190's ...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
If a silver cast from good 8R's why this date orientation? THis coin is starting to give me a headache ... its a great study piece ...
Edited by colonialjohn
01/28/2014 10:27 pm
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
Indeed the "1811" shows the orientation of the earlier "castle and flowers" shield type. And I don't recall having seen a variety of the second LVO type with the date inverted.
Although anything is possible - there is even a variety with the king misnamed as F.VI (see the Millennia Collection), and there are mules of the second shield with the first mountains side (identifyable because the cross is on the mountain peak in the front and not in the back). I'll have to check my files...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Realeswatcher ... on the way to work this morning I was only thinking about this coin ... I think in one regard the easy solution is just to consider it a very well made contemporary counterfeit made of period silver to reproduce a valuable coin of this period ... HOWEVER! ... since EXPLORING the War of Independence Issues now for a year it seems I have been doing that A LOT lately ... like no other series of coinage in the WORLD. There has to be some OTHER FACTORS ... in play here ... there SEEMS to be ANOMALIES ... here and there that most catalogers and current collectors are just considering modern fakes or contemporaries ... what do we call that Ferdinand VI issue or is it just coincidence a counterfeiter mimic's the date from the KM-189 variety for this KM-190 piece? Why debased issues in Chihuahua Casts (lousy looking $100 two bit coins) with official counter-marks? You don't have to travel far in the WOI issues to start scratching your head and saying "What the heck IS GOING ON HERE?!" I mean the West Indies is flooded with fakes but you have the catalogs - the auction sales and since you been collecting for 50 years like myself - yeah another contemporary or modern concoction - as I said this series is VERY DIFFERENT - of a collecting series I have never encountered before in terms of these very strange anomalies that keep popping up - EVERYWHERE.
John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
01/29/2014 07:58 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
on the way to work this morning I was only thinking about this coin Don't go crashing into electric poles or anything!! It was icy out there this AM... DWIC - Driving While Intox. on Coins? Quote:
as I said this series is VERY DIFFERENT - of a collecting series I have never encountered before in terms of these very strange anomalies that keep popping up - EVERYWHERE. If they keep popping up... I guess they aren't all that anomalous!! Quote:
or is it just coincidence a counterfeiter mimic's the date from the KM-189 variety for this KM-190 piece I certainly don't think it's just a coincidence... If it's either a contemporary counterfeit or numismatic counterfeit, clearly the idea that the date appears in that distinct upside-down (to the viewer) manner on a nearly identical type of coin was on the mind of whoever produced this piece. If by some chance it IS a genuine emission... you would have to guess that it represents a hybrid design (neater design elements, but still using the date style of the older type). I still think that considering that I can't find another in recent archives where the upside-down date isn't on KM189, combined with what that planchet looks like... that's some sort of non-official product - I would proceed under that assumption. Considering the surface silver % came back abnormally high (though you chalked it up to surface enrichment/copper leeching)... have you verified the specific gravity? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Tough to do on metal alloys ... an accurate s.g. but the weight was low but I have not done a weight survey ... like that debased alloy Chihuahua in my study 9/2013 MNA paper that was purchased BTW from the Mexican Coin Company ... and I did verify for Bopple that Stacks/Bowers piece you pulled the photo before in this thread and it also came up perfectly regal (Ag/Cu) with all its crudeness ... so what do we all say to these pieces & top auction companies & expert dealers selling these counterfeits that come up at regal level Ag and debased Ag issues with good countermarks verified by MCC ... JPL will keep looking/analyzing/questioning ... this fascinating series!
Edited by colonialjohn
01/29/2014 10:19 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
A few things I don't like about this piece, aside from the aforementioned:
-- the filled "A" letter in ZACATECAS... the first A is getting towards the weaker-struck area, but that second A is in the middle of the struck-up area and it's still filled. Not something I'm seeing on any other examples...
-- those extra triangular things jutting out of the denticles near "PRO..." - what is that?
-- (most curious) Look how broken that "D" in MONEDA is... The D on some other pieces I'm reviewing has a slight gap at the lower left... but nothing like this, where there is essentially NO bottom to the D
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Do you have a link (or a auction/lot #) to that "F VI" piece that you alluded to? Was curious to see what's going on with it...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Bopple can cite the FVI pedigree - its identified in Krause - have not tracked it down - yes - filled in A's as a sign of casting - I could write a book on that effect - but trace lead and fairly good ring tone - this is more crude than the typical KM-190's - but we are just going in circles here - will just keep moving forward - as Max Keech said in his MNA-WOI Counterstamp talk - this series is in its infancy - and as Dunnigan told me at the NYITL - just shred the WOI in Krause - it seems so Realeswatcher- I am all alone with these others in rebuilding and rewriting this series correctly from the ground up ...
John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
01/30/2014 06:30 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
I did locate another retrograde 8R LVO KM-190. In Mexicn Coin Company Newsletter on WOI they recommended some major War of Independence Collections - one of these was the Superior Coin Galleries - August 1983 Sale. See lot 1491 with the date as in this specimen. Will keep checking RETROGRADE dated KM-190 LVO's. Being in 1983 the picture quality is HORRIBLE - so it was in these days <BG>.
John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
02/07/2014 12:14 pm
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New Member
United States
38 Posts |
Two Cents of common sense for the countermarked series. I remember chatting with Hubbard about Many of these countermarks pieces. I said: Any c/m over a good quality (say a Mo 8 Reales or a good quality bust issue from a provincial mint that is struck) is very probably bogus. He agreed. Any purpotedly royalist c/m over an insurgent issue is again almost certainly bogus. Example: A royalist mark over an LVO insurgent to revalidate it makes no sense as the royalists made a point to declare them not legal tender. If you look at the bigger picture the series falls into place. First royalist provisional mints such as Real de Catorce Oaxaca and Valladolid were forced to strike issues of provisional designs and these has to be accepted. But after ca. 1814 all royalist mints has to strike the bust type. This is Why Early Ca for exámple had to be over struck even if the cast early issues were of good quality.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Just curious if you have the Pradeau Collection auction - Superior November 6, 1971 - does this collection TODAY have any mistakes or bogus pieces from what we know today. I am starting to track countermarks on host coins and also tracking population of certain issues from past sales - anyway - any Pradeau blunders by Superior in 1971 in your opinion?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
I just located a THIRD retrograde that I will call LVO 1811 KM-189/190 type in a current auction. Normally I do not post something in a current auction - its BAD MANNERS <BG>. Suffice to say they exist and this Gomez piece has company. I do not plan on buying it but I will be a little ANGEL and be willing to do an XRF on this piece to see its composition <BG> on whoever wins the piece wherever the live in the World. Good luck. Keep quiet Mat!
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
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Replies: 37 / Views: 6,003 |
First Page
Posted 01/28/2014 8:16 pm
