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 Replies: 46 / Views: 10,053 |
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Valued Member
Canada
495 Posts |
How can a grading company like PCGS or NGC who have graded over millions of coins be considered inferior to ICCS? Seems to me we are wasting our time and money if we have to have our Canadian coins in an ICCS holder to be worth anything? "By the coin and not the holder/slab" mmmm I beg to differ.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
743 Posts |
I have heard more and more about tampering with ICCS flips so I would be careful with buying something just because ICCS graded the coin. If anything, NGC and PCGS have holders that are much more robust and I would at least be confident that the coin bought from them is the one they actually graded.
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Valued Member
Canada
348 Posts |
PCG and NGC over grade most Canadian coins. Bottom line is they are inferior to ICCS when it comes to grading Canadian coins
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
'Inferior' is the wrong word to use when describing the US grading companies. 'Different' is much better. The US TPG's grading philosophy and grading scale is different than ICCS and therefore results in the misleading conclusion that they are 'inferior'. Basically, PCGS and NGC (when grading mint state coins) grade by looking at the high points of the coin, whereas ICCS grades by the fields of the coin. If you believe this, then you can understand that the same coin can grade quite differently from the two sources. I also said they use a different scale of grading. What I want to clarify is in a lot of cases, ICCS's ms65 equals PCGS's ms66. Look at the Pop reports for many modern series and you'll see a similar pop report numbers for this fact. Finally, I do want to add that for Canadian coins, I'd recommend ICCS exclusively. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5417 Posts |
Yes, it is true that PCGS and NGC do overgrade Canadian Coins (With PCGS worse than NGC, ANACS worse than both and ICG absolutely aweful). However, if you look at it from a different perspective it's actually quite a beneficial dilemma for any collector looking to buy and not sell. Because of their bad reputation with Canadian Coins and because most of the slab sellers are from the US, most coins can be had very cheap even for their actual grade. I have bought 3 NGC slabbed Canadian coins so far and have paid very low percentages for all. 1885 5 Cent - Large 5 - NGC XF-45 - $400 Actual Grade: XF-40 - $250 I Paid: $100 1870 10 Cent - Wide 0 - NGC XF-45 - $420 Actual Grade: VF-30 - $250 I paid: $120 1864 20 Cent NB: NGC AU-55 - $1700 Actual Grade: AU-50 - $1000 I Paid: $500 So there are really quite a few benefits to buying slabbed coins, because not all are overgraded, you just have to use your own perception rather than that of the seller or the graders. Another added benefit is that PCGS/NGC holder are much harder to counterfeit and US TPG's are much less lenient on problem-coins when compared to ICCS. Edited by zxcccxz
09/14/2014 3:04 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
Recognizing their differences can be beneficial in picking up some bargains too.
I recently bought a KGVI half in an NGC ms63 holder that I knew in 5 seconds was an ICCS ms65.
It had flawless, frosty and pristine surfaces yet it had a few marks on the cheek and hairline.
What NGC saw as a 'marked up' half, Brian Cornwell at ICCS (and me) recognized as an ms65. (see my earlier post, above.)
A $100 purchase turned into a $1500 sale.
This example is extremely rare in that a US graded coin upgrades at ICCS, but it does illustrate the grading differences that are out there and can be taken advantage of.
Edited by doubleeagle59
09/14/2014 12:53 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1949 Posts |
While I am aware the prevailing opinion is against me here, I strongly prefer the grading of PCGS to ICCS. Granted, on circulated coins, they simply have different grading standards and with Newfoundland circulated coins as well. However, on UNC pieces, I feel PCGS is far more consistent and accurate... I also feel there are simply too many problem coins graded by ICCS, for example, I have seen numerous ICCS coins with old cleanings which are either ignored (generally nice looking coins nonetheless) or seemingly net graded...
My personal Canadian collection is 100% PCGS graded, and I am extremely satisfied with the accuracy and consistency of the grading.
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Valued Member
Canada
220 Posts |
I will not buy ICCS graded coins at all, for a number of reasons. They steadfastly refuse to move out of the mid 20th century, and set up a comprehensive, searcheable website containing a database of graded coins. They are not interested in providing a holder of comparable quality and security to PCGS/NGC. I buy NGC graded coins exclusively. As mentioned above by someone else, I also usually score a good, undervalued deal this way, and the chances of a tampered holder or problem coin are negligible.
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Valued Member
 Canada
495 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5394 Posts |
I am with double eagle on this one. Totally different grading philosophies. The simple fact is NGC and PCGS do not grade to currently accepted Canadian technical standards. There is a ton of cash to made if you know how to grade and what ICCS looks for. Until something better comes along the way, the mid 20th century guys out of Toronto are the accepted standard. Just the way it is!!
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Moderator
Canada
10458 Posts |
Quote:
While I am aware the prevailing opinion is against me here, I strongly prefer the grading of PCGS to ICCS. Granted, on circulated coins, they simply have different grading standards and with Newfoundland circulated coins as well. However, on UNC pieces, I feel PCGS is far more consistent and accurate... I also feel there are simply too many problem coins graded by ICCS, for example, I have seen numerous ICCS coins with old cleanings which are either ignored (generally nice looking coins nonetheless) or seemingly net graded...
My personal Canadian collection is 100% PCGS graded, and I am extremely satisfied with the accuracy and consistency of the grading. I concur. I would rather see a coin graded based on the devices, not the fields. I am in the process of migrating over my ICCS collection into PCGS, and eliminating the coins that I know PCGS will not grade (i.e., genuine)... "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
972 Posts |
 Why bother buying Canadian coins if there not graded by ICCS. IMO if you want to protect your investment in Canadian coins you are smart to try and acquire ICCS graded coins. I have found ICCS to be a extremely tough grading company and the grade they give coins is usually right. -The CCN trends is the "bible" to almost all dealers and collectors when it comes to values of Canadian coins. These trends are for ICCS graded coins. -Not only is ICCS the toughest grader of Canadian coins it is also the most affordable. Costs for grading with other companies can be 2-3 time as much, if not more. -ICCS is also a Canadian company. When you use ICCS you are supporting a Canadian company. PCGS, ANACS, NGC, are all US companys. Why would you use any other company than ICCS when they are the best, most affordable, and you keep your hard earned dollars in Canada. I also recommend ICCS exclusively for grading of your Canadian coins. Edited by wireman09
09/15/2014 12:17 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts |
Ditto what SPP has just stated..
For those "in the know" and for those of you that have seen my collection and saw the flawless gems that were graded 63 or 62 or even less,..I am also in the process of getting them graded by PCGS.
SPP and a few other "high caliber" collectors that are very active in their own top end of the "registry sets" have also been very helpful and very critical of ICCS after viewing ICCS's grading of my collection.
For that reason,..you will never see me quote an ICCS grade on my posted coins again in this forum.
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Moderator
Canada
10458 Posts |
I should clarify, that I am referring to coins in my own personal collection. I also like the registry set game, a service not offered by ICCS.
That said, I also deal in coins, and I use ICCS for coins I intend to sell, because that is what the majority of the Canadian collecting market demands, and it is the cheapest option for Canadian dealers...
As was mentioned above - one is not necessarily better than the other, US companies just grade coins differently. Everyone has their personal preference...
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Valued Member
Canada
147 Posts |
There is no reason why, when you're buying a coin that is in-hand, you should ever be concerning yourself with TPG. There is simply not enough of a consensus to make them universally reliable. I've had a lot of issues with ICCS-graded coins. I've had coins come back from PCGS that have utterly destroyed a value because they don't want to commit to something outside of it being "genuine". That is a tool that, regrettably, is the best we have when it comes to selling coins online or when the buyer cannot see the coin first-hand. I've become a firm believer in the "buy the coin, not the holder" philosophy and try to extend that thinking to my customers. However, I realize that when more and more coin dealing goes online, one has to have a standard by which coins are measured when the proper viewing is impossible (see my thread in the Grading forum on an issue I had with BCS and a set of banknotes). TPGs come up with their own standardization and its never the same as the others. We choose what TPGers we support based on our perception and that just adds another level of bias to coin dealing. |
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Valued Member
United States
114 Posts |
I don't know that this really says anything about ICCS because I was looking at a PEI penny on ebay that was graded by a former ICCS employee. It was clearly way over-graded, which confused me because the seller has lots of sales and really good feedback. Still, I am very familiar with that coin and there was no doubt it was pretty severely over-graded. I'm including the link, and while the coin is claimed as AU, the leaves on the reverse are so worn that I think it's barely an XF. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/171349878898...677726469767 |
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Replies: 46 / Views: 10,053 |
Posted 09/14/2014 11:11 am
