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 Replies: 45 / Views: 8,521 |
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Pillar of the Community
861 Posts |
Let's start at Jan 10, 2014. Heritage sale of 1801 Large Cent NGC MS62 sells for $5,000: http://coins.ha.com/itm/large-cents.../1200-2744.sCoin was severely over-graded and was unsellable. Fast-forward to Dec, 2014 owner, friscomint1793, lists coin for sale for $6,950 OBO: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1801-S-216-...em41874de9ccBut, at the same time, he has sent this coin to an auction house to sell for him, and yesterday, the coin sold for $3,900: http://www.goldbergcoins.com/view-a...m/watchlist/Now, how is this a SCAM and how did it GO BAD: 1. It is a SCAM because the owner, friscomint1793 no longer had the coin to sell once he consigned it to the auction house. If someone were to have bought, or, buy-it-now, he would be unable to fulfill the sale, and if he did, he would have to commit a crime to do so. 2. It WENT BAD because he paid $5,000 and received only $3,900 for a net loss of $1,100. Lesson learned on what NOT to do. Edited by g048406
01/26/2015 12:02 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1208 Posts |
I agree that the coin was over-graded. I have become really disillusioned with TPGs. I have seen so much over-grading, under-grading, grading for politics and not true grade, and even counterfeit coins slabbed as though genuine. When you take all this into consideration, and add to it that slabs are being counterfeited... What good are they really? I have an under-graded (in my opinion) coin from PCGS, and I spoke with a PCGS rep at a coin show... He agreed. However, he told me not to resubmit it because it would never get upgraded because of some toning! I asked about how they say toning doesn't affect grade, which it shouldn't, and he responded that I was correct, they CLAIM toning doesn't affect grade, but for political reasons, they DO grade toning, because their customers want the money on the blast white coins when it comes to high grades.  Edited by ratio411
01/26/2015 01:01 am
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Valued Member
Canada
79 Posts |
Because it is not an exact science, grading will always be subjective. The human being is not able to be totally objective, it is just in his nature.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1566 Posts |
I'm a large cent collector and an eBayer and I have run into friscomint1793's terribly over priced coins before. I've never bought one as my Daddy didn't leave me a trust fund. Coin is still listed as buy it now. His ebay listings claim he's a member of the Professional Numistmatics Guild but I've always had my doubts over his dubious grades and outrageous prices. Now I have hard evidence. Thanks g048406. Edited by Celticsoul
01/26/2015 07:23 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1796 Posts |
Quote:
10 Goldberg reserves the right to withdraw any lot at any time, even after the hammer has fallen, until the Purchaser has taken physical possession of the lot. No Consignor who has registered to bid at the sale (or at any other time unless otherwise provided in the consignment agreement), or any Purchaser or prospective Bidder shall have a right to claim any damages, direct, consequential or otherwise, if a lot is withdrawn, even after the sale. |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Although the schadenfreude at the seller's predicament is delicious, I can't say I disagree with the grade the coin received.
This is S-216 in a late die state. By this point, the die pair wasn't really up to striking coins any more. Have a look at the (few) places where the dies were still capable of striking detail and suggest where the wear is visible. This is most noticeable at the back of the hair and upper right of the reverse - those places show no wear. They'd have to, if what we see on the rest of the coin is wear.
The coin hasn't circulated.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts |
The value of an 1801 S-216 is listed in the 2014 Noyes Penny Prices at $6500 in AU50 condition using strict EAC grading. If you read the Goldbergs auction description of the coin they call it an AU55, the Goldbergs are very conservative graders and use strict EAC standards when grading Large Cents....It can't be a scam unless someone paid for the coin and didn't receive it.....Either someone got a real good buy or read above post by SteveCaruso.
Edited by 1893S
01/26/2015 11:55 am
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Pillar of the Community
 861 Posts |
The SCAM I'm referring to is the owner sent the coin to Goldberg Auctions, yet, he had, and still has, the coin for sale on ebay. The seller had no rights to selling the coin elsewhere once he sent the coin off to auction. |
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Pillar of the Community
861 Posts |
As for the grade, the coin is NOT Mint State. I can see definite wear on the coin as does Goldeberg, "Just the lightest touch of rub is visible on the highest points of the devices." The coin was given the MS62 by NGC because of the Mervis status, for anybody else, it's an AU55 or AU58.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5392 Posts |
Just because the coin is sent to auction means NOTHING. COMMON LAW states that the consignor is still the owner until a Purchaser pays for and actually takes possession of the item. The auction firm is merely an agent acting on behalf of the SELLER. The Consignor can withdraw an item at any time previous to a completed sale. See above Terms and conditions.
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Well, Goldberg has had it in hand so one has to defer to that. The Heritage images - especially the coin-only ones - are sort of unequivocal, though. With images of that size and and so much light brought to bear, the only way to achieve such homogenous surface appearance across areas which should and should not have worn is either to strip the surfaces or not circulate the coin. Pixels don't lie when there's enough of them, and there's enough of them here to make a serious coin photographer doubt they're looking at a circulated coin. Guess I just have to agree to disagree here.
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Valued Member
United States
373 Posts |
Folks- I know the seller friscomint1793. I probably should not reveal his identity here, since he does not do so in his ebay store. However, I can vouch for the fact that he is an early copper expert, extremely well-respected, and as ethical as the day is long. I do not know the details around the apparent double-listing - though I would imagine a simple oversight, given his 2600 ebay listings. I do know with certainty that he is not promulgating any scam. Incidentally, while he lists a number of high-priced coppers, you will definitely get what you paid for - this guy carries the cream of the crop. But he doesn't only list the good stuff - his BIN's start at $30. And he always gives honest and nit-picky descriptions, unlike the "look at the pictures" cop-out of so many ebay sellers. Finally, he is one of the preeminent EAC graders around. He absolutely knows the grade of the coin in question, certainly better than NGC. He may lose money on this coin. What dealer doesn't get a loser now and again? But it's certainly not his business model. I'm sorry to make this sound so mysterious. I just want to curtail this rather negative thread about a person who is a very positive force in our hobby. Please PM me if you want more details. p.s. No, I'm not friscomint1793, nor employed by him, in debt to him, or a family member! ;-) |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1949 Posts |
I have accidentally kept a coin listed as buy it now on ebay after I sold it privately, just a simple mistake, not a scam. I know some dealers who bring their online inventory to shows, if something sold online and at the show, I wouldn't consider it to be scam... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1796 Posts |
Aye, also remember that to scam implies intent. A mistake is not intent, but rather the reverse. Nor are multiple listing to increase visibility.
Provided that one doesn't sell it twice.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1796 Posts |
Also are we sure both listings originate from the same person?
Edited by SteveCaruso
01/26/2015 9:37 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts |
ProfLiz,.....Well said! It is indeed true what you have expressed in your post....I've never been disappointed with my many purchases from friscomint1793. Mostly I've been elated with how choice and beautiful their LC's are in regards to the quality.....And I also am not employed by them, in debt to them, or a family member.....Thanks for your articulate post ProfLiz.
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Replies: 45 / Views: 8,521 |
Posted 01/26/2015 01:19 am
