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Unidentified Copper Bar Or Ingot.

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allranger's Avatar
United States
1391 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2015  1:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add allranger to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I got this strange little item as part of a lot.

Appears to be copper.
Weight: 8 grams
Dimensions: 10 mm x 5-6 mm

Unidentified-Copper-Bar-Or-Ingot.

Unidentified-Copper-Bar-Or-Ingot.

Unidentified-Copper-Bar-Or-Ingot.

Unidentified-Copper-Bar-Or-Ingot.

Out of the lot so far I have identified a coin of Manadeva from the ancient Licchavi Kingdom (in modern day Nepal). A 1787 copper hammered 1 Paisa of Rana Bahadur from Nepal. A c. 1890 Tibetan 1 Tangka in immaculate condition. A 1/4 Anna of Umaid Singh under George VI from Jodhpur. An Imitative Kushan Empire coin of Huvishka (with no legends). Plus five other coins that I have not identified yet but are hammered copper. At least two of them I think are Indian States. Two others might have Arabic writing on them. In the box was also what I believe to be an other Kushan coin but it was broken in half so I did not get it.

I asked about the providence of the coins, but they have been at the coin store so long (over a decade or more) that no one remembers where they came from or even what they were. I think they were part of a larger collection and the items that couldn't be identified were put aside.

I asked about this copper piece and one guy thought it could be Roman but did not know specifically. I pressed him on why he though this and he said he read somewhere that Romans used bits of iron bars as change at one time.

Honestly at first I didn't think this was an item of any numismatic value what so ever. But given the company that this ingot was keeping, I am inclined to think it is more from the Indian/Nepal/Tibet area, as everything I have identified so far is from that part of the world. If nothing else the original owner must have thought it was something of numismatic interest to be in with the coins.

With this information I started searching and found references to small bits of copper being used in Nepal to make change. One was the Bhutwaliya paise:


Quote:
"Besides the machine made paisa two other kinds are in general use. One, the Bhutwaliya paisa is made at Teusan the Palpa district and consists of a square lump of pure copper with a rough stamp on it."


The fact that it has a stamp and was pure copper seem to rule it out for my piece, as there is no indication that there was ever a stamp. The other, though is more interesting:


Quote:

The other, the Lohiya paisa, is also a rough square lump of copper but is much adulterated with iron. It is chiefly used in the eastern districts.


So the Lohiya Paisa was not pure copper and doesn't seem to have been stamped in any way (based of the references I have found). You may be able to see the rust of the ingot I have, so it appears to have some iron in it also.

The weights I have seen given for the Lohiya 1 Paise are between 8 to 12 grams. I presume that the weight range is because of the impurities in the copper of the Eastern regions. My piece is at 8 grams, making it at the lower end of the scale but in range. There is some wear on mine too, indicating it may have weighed (slightly) more at one point.

Of note on my piece is that there are filing or cuts marks on the edges. I have tried to photograph them but I am not sure how well they show up. There is also a lump of corrosion on the side, as seen in some of the photographs.

In conclusion , I have tentativly identified this piece as a Lohiya 1 Paise from Eastern Nepal. Does anyone agree or disagree, or have any knowledge on this piece?

Thanks.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1324 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2015  2:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add andyg to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bits of copper like this were used all over India, Whilst silver coin production was tightly controlled, copper it seems could be issued by any local workshop and was then traded by weight.
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allranger's Avatar
United States
1391 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2015  11:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add allranger to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So it may just be a generic Indian copper ingot. It is times like this that make me wish I could find the original providence for a piece.
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United States
937 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2015  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tryna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I asked about the providence of the coins,


I am sorry but this is something that makes me bite my nose.

The word you used.

prov·i·dence (pr#335;v#8242;#301;-d#601;ns, -d#277;ns#8242;)
n.
1. Care or preparation in advance; foresight.2. Prudent management; economy.3. The care, guardianship, and control exercised by a deity; divine direction: "Some sought the key to history in the working of divine providence" (William Ebenstein).4. Providence God.


Should be


provenance
Also found in: Legal, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
prov·e·nance (pr#335;v#8242;#601;-n#601;ns, -näns#8242;)
n.
1. Place of origin; derivation.2.
a. The history of the ownership of an object, especially when documented or authenticated. Used of artworks, antiques, and books.b. The records or documents authenticating such an object or the history of its ownership.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok done trying to bite my nose.
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allranger's Avatar
United States
1391 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2015  5:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add allranger to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are correct. I don't know if I am typing it wrong or if autocorrect is getting me. Since I have it wrong in two posts I likely typed it wrong. I am dyslexic, so I don't always pronounce words correctly because I don't read them correctly, leading me to type them incorrectly when I listen to the internal narration.

I was really hoping you replied because you had some information about my ingot.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16857 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2015  6:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So the Lohiya Paisa was not pure copper and doesn't seem to have been stamped in any way (based of the references I have found). You may be able to see the rust of the ingot I have, so it appears to have some iron in it also.

There's an easy test for iron: see if it sticks to a magnet. A diluted-iron alloy will most likely stick weakly, to even a weak magnet. Only use a stronger magnet on it if a weak one doesn't seem to react, since putting a powerful magnet carelessly close to a highly ferromagnetic object can damage the object, and any fingers that might get in between them.

I've been surprised at how many of my late Roman "bronzes" stick weakly to a strong magnet.

Meanwhile, as to the nature of the object: it's also possible that it's a weight. That would have been my assumption, if I found an object like this among a bunch of coins and coin-like objects. A weight is a natural object to be filed, since if it was made too heavy (or if the merchant was of the less-than-honest sort), the unwanted extra mass can simply be shaved off.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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allranger's Avatar
United States
1391 Posts
 Posted 03/17/2015  09:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add allranger to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you sap. I think you are correct about it being a weight.
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