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 Replies: 16 / Views: 3,366 |
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Valued Member
United States
246 Posts |
Hello all, I am relatively new to the community and have a much greater knowledge base on classic US coins. I came across this and am trying to get any and all info that can be offered. Specifically: Is it genuine? Where was it made? Determining factors used to decide these things. Here is the information I can provide aside from photos: It has been polished / buffed (NOT BY ME) Weight: 26.86g Measurements: 39.14mm to 39.41mm and 2.4mm thick at thickest point. On a shallow surface XRF test on it shows a silver content of 93.8% and the remaining in copper. (for reference an authentic US Seated Liberty tests show 92.2% Silver and 7.9% Copper on the surface.)        |
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
No problem, real to me. The physical values of the coin shown makes me more confident that it is genuine.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
I see the edge design overlap on the last edge photo. Can you provide an edge photo 180 degrees from that photo? One authentication diagnostic is the presence of a second edge overlap of the same length on the opposite side.
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Valued Member
United States
262 Posts |
Welcome to the world coin community. Like you, I started in classic US coins. There is so much to explore. I think you'll find it fascinating. As to your questions: Regarding authenticity: As with US coins its best to start by viewing many examples so that, in time, anything unusual will jump out at you. I don't see any red flags. However, I am no expert in this series. Wonghinghi and several others on this forum are more familiar with these particular issues. I'm sure the others will chime in as well. The M with circle above it on the reverse indicates Mexico City as the location of minting. |
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Valued Member
 United States
246 Posts |
Thanks everyone so far, Requested pics of edge from one side and then 180 degrees on other side.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
That might be a short second overlap on the top picture although it's hard to determine if it's exactly opposite the overlap on the bottom picture. If it's truly 180 degrees opposite then you have evidence that the coin was edged by passing through a device that employed two parallel edging dies. My understanding is that forgers making struck replicas would not go through the effort to get this edge detail correct. You can search CCF for many posts by swamperbob that discuss this important authentication diagnostic.
Where did you go to get the XRF done and was it sensitive enough to show a trace amount of gold?
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Valued Member
United States
246 Posts |
Hello,
Again thanks to everyone.
As far as the xrf, I have a unit that will run basic xrf but only a few microns deep and not sensitive enough to register very slight gold content. It would need to be approximately 1/2 of a percent or more to show with its current set up.
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Valued Member
United States
246 Posts |
Hello again, I did get a chance to calibrate my xrf and it did show the following. AU .14% AG 91.25% CU 7.63% FE 0.85% PB .13%  Thoughts? |
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
Peace13, your xrf data is acceptable on the whole. Au though is a bit lower than 0.2%, I still think the 8R coin was made of old silver. The presence of Pb is another good indication. Did you use a modern silver coin as a negative control for your examination? Can you also tell how much do you cost to buy this instrument? Henry
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
246 Posts |
Yes a modern silver US coin showed only silver and copper as its metals.
This Olympus XRF was about $20,000 new, I think one could be had for about $15,000 now.
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New Member
United States
7 Posts |
Proper way to go about it, nice and methodical. I am also jus starting to learn about coins of this era (most of my knowledge is for Morgan dollars and later). The coloring and patina are things that just don't look right if a coin is faked or manipulated. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
peaece13 you have a wonderful resource for testing alloy composition. As Henry mentioned, 0.2% AU has been the figure that Bob Gurney and John Lorenzo have determined is typical for regal Mexico 8 reales. I hope you will continue to collect 8 reales and let us know how they test out with your XRF equipment.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
This value looks OK as a period silver piece. Its when you get a value of 0.02% Au that its a problem. Also with cast pieces this 0.2% Au is not always present due to the cast coring effect in the microstructure of cast pieces (i.e., masking the gold as most may be in the inner core of the coin). This has been seen on War of Independence Issues of cast silver already. About 95% of silver struck pieces will be >0.2% but remember its all the tools to determine period silver and regal. Good lead value from the silver cuppelation process and iron is normally considered an outside contaminant.
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
peaece13 Hello and welcome.
The analysis you have done is a great beginning. From the photos the coin appears to be a Class 2 Counterfeit made for the China trade.
I have several comments.
First - the coin is most likely early (pre-1870) because of the gold content. It was not made with modern silver (post 1880).
Second - there does not appear to be an appropriate overlap on the edge design where there should be one. If there are 2 laps they are not the same length. I also see some variation in circle shape and spacing that could point to the same conclusion. I noted a few other issues typical of Class 2 like irregular taper of the flan and random raised dots.
Third - the entire design looks more like those seen on a Class 2 circulating silver counterfeit than a genuine coin. (Don't worry about that since I do not believe the market will reflect a difference for some years to come especially for the Class 2 coins that contain gold).
The 1811 was the last of the Portrait busts that was copied for use in making Class 2 silver counterfeits.
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
Quote:
the coin appears to be a Class 2 Counterfeit made for the China trade.
To my humble opinion, Ferdinand VII's 8 Reales was not the popular type to be re-struck for China trade. If this was really the case, more armored bust of Ferd. VII 8 Reales would be left and more easily be found today. But, this is definitely not true. Armored bust of Ferd. VII is much less encountered in ebay than Carolus IV. The appearance of the coin looks as if it had been circulated for a long time and had a sign of natural wear. Anyway I agree with an original 8R should have two edge overlaps. Try to check it with yourself peaece13. |
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Replies: 16 / Views: 3,366 |
Posted 05/08/2015 10:12 am
