Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin AuctionsSpecializing in Modern Numismatics Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. 300,000 items to help build your collection! Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

A Double Die Question

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 1,616Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
999fine's Avatar
United States
1346 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  10:51 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add 999fine to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
What was the life span of a double die die compared to an ordinary die, say in the timeframe 19505 to 1960s?

1. Were they pulled from service when the doubling was noticed? I'm trying to get a handle on why they are scarce.

2. Can someone show the difference between a double die coin and a double struck coin (assuming there is such a critter.

Pillar of the Community
kookoox10's Avatar
United States
1054 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  11:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kookoox10 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not going to say they are any more scarce then as they are today. Dies, whether they have doubling or not will produce the same approximation of coins. The real difference maker is if the mint employees catch the mistakes on those dies and halt production. Then at time, they fix or make new dies to remove doubling, RPMs, etc. In fact, variety coins were much more common place during the 50's than they are today.

And in answer to your second question, a double struck coin is way different than one that is a doubled die. I don't have any readily available reference photos, but I'm sure someone will get a couple sample on here for you. If you wanted a quick reference, just search "double struck" coins on ebay and you will get what you need. There will be two types of double struck errors, on that occurs in the collar as a rotation or a flipover, and one that occurs outside the collar that will look like an off-center with the second impression. The in-collar types are so much more rare.
Pillar of the Community
999fine's Avatar
United States
1346 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  11:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 999fine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
kookoox10 - thanks. I am familiar with the off center strikes. It was a poor question. I was wondering if there were double strikes that were close to the impression of a double die. I did find one but the difference between it and a double die is now quite obvious. Thanks.
Moderator
Learn More...
John1's Avatar
United States
56855 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  11:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This shows the diff between hub doubling and Machine Doubling http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...PIC_ID=51410
John1
Pillar of the Community
999fine's Avatar
United States
1346 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 999fine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, John.
Pillar of the Community
koinpro's Avatar
United States
1781 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  1:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add koinpro to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
999fine,

First, Doubled Die is spelled with a "d" at the end of Doubled -- not Double.

After 35 years specializing in errors and varieties, my examination of the known die states/stages of United States doubled dies and RPMs of typical strength from the 20th/21st century (where applies), strongly suggests to me that there is/was zero attempt by the Mint to remove from service the vast majority of dies with RPMs or Doubled Dies.

They run them to the end just like any other die. And just like any other die, they are subject to die failure anytime from the first strike through hundreds of thousands or even millions of strikes. If a die fails after one-thousand strikes and it contains a doubled die, it will be deemed rare since most will never get into collectors' hands.

What does happen is that major doubled dies (such as the 1955, 1969-S, 1972 cents) and possibly some RPMs were/are taken out of service at the time they were caught -- if caught. Note: there were no RPMs after 1989.

If you've ever looked at the magnifying glasses that the Mint uses and how quick dies are inspected, (and I don't mean the way they inspect them in youtube videos where they spend more time on an exam to make it look good) it becomes obvious that there is a level of latitude in what is acceptable and what is not.

My experience suggests that 99% of the doubled dies produced are undoubtedly deemed acceptable to a level that they don't even look for them. I can't tell you how many times doubled dies have been sent to the Mint in recent years and they indicate that they don't even see them. Bottom line is they are too minor for them to care about.

When it comes to mintage you also need to consider that most varieties fade with time and it has to be assumed that some fade to the point they are absent from later die stages. I once saw a very late die state of the 1955 1c DDO-002 that was found in a roll of the so-called "poor man's double dies" ( Die Deterioration Doubling [ DDD]) that for the life of me I had to twist and turn in all directions before I could see it. The hub doubling of the date was completely obliterated by the DDD and all that could be seen was very faint traces of the doubling on IGWT. Most doubled dies are not this strong and can be masked by DDD.

If an RPM or doubled die is no longer discernible after a given number of strikes for whatever reason the die will still be in use but the variety, for all practical purposes, is gone.

There are a few statements you may hear about varieties. One that is oft repeated in descriptions goes something like this: "Stage C shows abrasion around the Mintmark in an attempt to remove the RPM." Hogwash! Dies are routinely dress out to remove clash marks and superficial die cracks to extend their life. It's that simple over 99% of the time.

Your'll also hear that a variety is on the die during its manufacture and that die will repeat itself in producing whatever variety may have been on it, identically over and over again for the life of the die. Again, hogwash! Varieties can occur anytime during use. For example, clashed die varieties such as the "E" Reverse Morgan dollar did not get created with the clashed E on the die from the time the die was manufactured. That "E Reverse developed sometime after the die was put into service. There are varying opinions on what a variety is or isn't. I side with the majority in accepting any changes that can occur to a die during its manufacture, use, and even storage; such as those listed in the CherryPickers' Guide To Rare Die Varieties as being varieties.

You asked about a double strike. I assume you mean double strike in collar with little rotation between strikes.

Here is a 2007-P James Madison Presidential dollar found in a 2007 Uncirculated dollar set. You'll notice that it is double struck on both the obverse and reverse to the same degree of rotation.

Click Images To Enlarge
A-Double-Die-Question
A-Double-Die-Question
A-Double-Die-Question
Edited by koinpro
05/09/2015 10:27 am
Pillar of the Community
999fine's Avatar
United States
1346 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  1:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 999fine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ken - thank you for your kind and knowledgable reply.I hope others will take interest in it as well. And, yes, your dollar example is what I was asking about. There is no comparing the two.
Pillar of the Community
koinpro's Avatar
United States
1781 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  1:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add koinpro to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
999fine,
You are right, no comparison. I figured that would be obvious so did not elaborate. Glad it was of help.
Rest in Peace
bpoc1's Avatar
United States
4078 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  5:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Mr. Potter, a wealth of information.
999fine, great question.
Bedrock of the Community
coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  6:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The doubled dies that were probably pulled from the runs early are the ones that only the EDS coins are known to exist. This makes them even fewer in number. If you see coins in the LDS/VLDS die states, then it run until being retired.
Pillar of the Community
koinpro's Avatar
United States
1781 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add koinpro to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coop is right. There are not that many that are only known in Early Die State (EDS) but they do exist and then there are the matte uncirculated Mint Set coins (2005-2010), the Special Mint Set (SMS) coins and the proofs. The only thing about the Matte Unc, SMS and Proof coins is that the existing supply is virtually available to all collectors to find as they are preserved in Government issue collector sets, while doubled dies from business strike dies can end up like a needle in a haystack and often with the majority well worn if not found early. There have been a few rather major finds on dates going back to 1982 (for example) where the variety was not discovered until decades later. Shown below is the 1982 Doubled Die Reverse cent. This one wasn't discovered until 2007. The one shown here is the second specimen found and was featured in a front page story I wrote for Numismatic News in Feb 2008. Jim Proctor of Vermont reported it and it took him four months from the time the first one was reported to find it. At that he was lucky as few have been reported since. You can see the entire story and more images here: http://hermes.csd.net/~coneca/conte...ECAStory.htm

Click Image To Enlarge
A-Double-Die-Question
Edited by koinpro
05/08/2015 8:31 pm
Bedrock of the Community
coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  8:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 2002-D DDR I found is very limited. I know of 4 examples so far.
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/...ie_state=mds
A-Double-Die-Question
A-Double-Die-Question
Pillar of the Community
CopperCastle's Avatar
United States
1132 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CopperCastle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Love the visual aids. It's easy to speculate in small circles as to what causes these things to happen & the dissemination of misinformation is a blight to those unfortunate enough not to have valuable assets like Coop & Mr. Potter at our fingertips. Thanks again guys.
  Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 1,616Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.43 seconds to rattle this change. Forums