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 Replies: 17 / Views: 4,284 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
Not an obvious modern forgery so far as I can see. Photos are pretty lousy, but good enough that I can make out the dragon's teeth. Edge doesn't appear to be reeded as is the case with a lot of current "replicas". There looks to be some serious die cracking evident, and overall the wear doesn't seem wrong. The seller's "0" feedback is worrisome, but the piece isn't coming directly from China or Romania or another typical source for phonies. I guess I'm just not getting the same vibe you are. I'd have to have this in hand, and at least weighed, before I'd pronounce it to be bad.
Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
06/22/2015 8:56 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I have questions similar to Lucky Cuss. Why Numismat do you think this coin is a numismatic forgery?
I look at the coin and see a weakly struck - poorly photographed genuine 8R that sold for a very reasonable price. If I collected genuine 8Rs I would have bid up to $22.50 my base level price.
The problem here may be applying the incorrect standards to a coin made in a different era.
The date 1878 was struck on planchets edged in a steam mill which edged blanks in groups (up to ten at a time as I recall). This edger is noted for high standing rims as I see here and it often applied multiple impressions of the edge if the blank got stuck. In Mexico City the old single coin manual edger was long retired by this time. I can clearly see an engrailed edge not a reeded edge so any evidence of forgery would require a full rim inspection.
The "ring of toning" in this case looks normal and I suspect it follows a circular die fracture (possibly displaced) which is a feature noted on many Mexican dies of the early steam press era. After the introduction of the Peso failed during Maximilian's time I do not know exactly what the press set up was at Mexico City. Pesos were close or closed collar issues from Mexico City. I have found no documentation about the adoption of the close collar for 8Rs but I suspect that happened about the time circular die fractures began appearing. This coin is fully consistent in appearance with a close collar steam press strike in my opinion.
Remember when viewing a Cap and Ray coin you must be very aware of how the mint made the coins at the date of production. Manual screw press strikes of the First Republic do not look like steam press strikes of the Second Republic.
Good luck hunting though. Never be discouraged by asking a question and not getting the answer you hoped for. Keep posting coins you question so everyone can learn.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1666 Posts |
This is one of a multitude of accounts selling modern fakes that I, and also Bob, have tracked over the years. It may not be evident from the bad photos, but there have been many, many examples with various dates and mintmarks from the same accounts that have identical appearance and that same "ring of toning". Although the location is always listed in the US, the items are shipped from China with a US return address. The weigh is often a little bit off, but only by a couple tenths of a gram. (I've purchased coins from this distributor in the past, when they were going for low enough to not shell out genuine coin money for fake coins)
Also, Lucky Cuss, the dragon's teeth are all but useless in identifying modern fakes like these, as the details are generally correct.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
Quote:
Also, Lucky Cuss, the dragon's teeth are all but useless in identifying modern fakes like these, as the details are generally correct. Unless they're present on a date that they shouldn't be (which I've seen), and on most outright fakes, it's been my experience that in hand they usually lack the requisite sharpness to convince. But if the quality of the fakes has gotten that much better recently, then that diagnostic may well be out the window. Which means that more concrete identifiers than merely a suspicious ebay account must be developed as these coin are bound to enter the collector msrketplace outside of online venues. I'd remark that of all the "Cap & Rays" dates to fake, 1878 is on the later side & pretty barren ground for any big profit. I'd ask if the ones you're aware of are actually being shipped directly from China to the U.S. customer, or reshipped from a U.S. address. Also, can you advise as to the composition of the ones you've encountered, and how they're getting the weight close? Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
06/23/2015 01:40 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
They are high purity silver. There have been also lots of examples of common date Morgan dollars with the same exact appearance and toning ring. I have an ongoing thread keeping up with the many accounts from these distributors on another forum, unfortunately most of the older links are dead. More recently I have started stealing the sellers pics and posting them in addition to the ebay links. There is big profit in many of the other coins they sell. Even when said coins sell extremely cheap compared to genuine examples. Currency trade manipulation by China means that selling a coin for even $5 above silver value (and then minus ebay and paypal fees) is still worthwhile. This is the same reason you can buy things from sellers in China and Hong for Kong for under $2 and with free shipping. US sellers could never profit on that, but due to the currency trade manipulation, these things are still profitable for them. I believe colonialjohn is looking into doing a write up on coins like this with XRF results and all. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Austria
566 Posts |
The most important thing in numismatics: Know your source!
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1949 Posts |
If all of those are close to the correct weight and are all counterfeit, that is rather terrifying... Nothing jumps out at me on a quick glance that would have made me do a double take
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I definitely have to get a copy of that 1878 Mo ML for study. Seeing the group it was with definitely is a clue to forgery - seeing it in isolation is another issue. I has all the correct traits.
Do you have one or more of these in hand?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
Well, I have to commend Numismat for his diligence in ferreting these out. Without the demonstration of how these listings are all linked, my reaction to the single listing originally referred to would've stood - an innocuous, common specimen for which the red flags (zero feedback, poor photgraphy) probably don't deter a purchase so long as the price remained reasonable.
The fact that for this forger precious metal content is accepted as the price of conducting this nefarious trade, along with the sheer variety of types, is quite frightening. A very sophisticated operation that will be polluting the hobby for years to come.
From the standpoint of my little collecting niche of "Cap & Rays" 8 reales, I obviously would like to see large, detailed photos of various ones put out by this ring accompanied by as much physical data (weight, composition, dimensions) as possible.
Colligo ergo sum
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
Bob,
I don't have any examples of the 8 reales. The unfortunate part is that I often see them after the listings have ended. I have examples of some of the other types. I am looking into snagging one of the cap and rays coins and once I do will gladly send it to you to be inspected in hand. John will probably want to see it as well to blast it with XRF.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
Edited by Numismat
06/24/2015 12:23 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
Another auction that standing alone wouldn't particularly set off any alarms. Very insidious how these are being listed.
Colligo ergo sum
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Everything numismat has noticed and noted about this ring is correct. (numismat, I assume you recall the superperfect, Walmart, and similar IDs - which would be sort of laughable Chinglish if they weren't in fact mocking us with these fakes!! - and Queens, NY, Texas A&M town locations, etc...?). Bob, I privately discussed this group of sellers w/you probably a year and a half, two years ago (pointing out in particular these Cap & Ray pieces, which worried me b/c of how good they are). I recall you saying at the time to refrain from posting anything publicly, that you and the other ebay enforcers were aware of them and trying to take them down or whatever... As numismat pointed out, they also have put out a similar chunk of fairly common date Morgans. As with the Cap & Rays, the frosty look of these "UNC" examples is rather convincing. The same ring also offers, for all of your fake coin needs, the usual assortment of 1800s Germanic thaler-types, fake pillar 8R... and bust 8R with a plethora of chops on them (which that cowpie moron likes to buy from undoubtedly several different of these user IDs and then flip, feigning apparent ignorance as to their true origin). I've even seen a few oddballs like XF-level Draped lg cents with decent brown (artificial) "toning" (fitting in with the Bust halves numismat posted on the other forum thread). These are the C&R dates I've observed and have pics of... I believe there are a few others (like 1883 Zs, an example of which I see suggested via one of the items linked above). Generally presented either blast white UNC, or UNC with that watery peripheral ring tone as noted: 1876 Cn 1878 Mo 1879 Go 1882 Mo 1884 Zs 1885 Zs 1888 Ca 1895 Mo |
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Replies: 17 / Views: 4,284 |
Posted 06/22/2015 10:58 pm
