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 Replies: 31 / Views: 6,424 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1119 Posts |
A previous thread that mentioned the 1975 fantasy quarter piqued my curiosity and I went to see what I could see about it.
I was looking at Moonlight Mint's web site and reading the description of the the coins. There is a line that states 'Do not attempt to use these as legal tender'. Why not? The fantasy coin started life as a legal tender coin and I assume they were never demonetized. They coin should still have the same legal tender status as when it was first issued. Would it be against the law to attempt to spend one of these coins? I would not be trying to defraud anyone because the coin was issued with the same monetary status that I would be spending it. Thoughts?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10034 Posts |
My main thought is that after paying 40.00 for a fantasy quarter overstrike, it would be foolish anyway to spend it for a quarter. This is just one reason I think he is allowed to make these. He is not seeking to defraud, and neither would someone trying to spend them.
Having said that, I think Dan Carr is also smart enough to know the people buying these would not be foolish enough to spend them at face value. However, I think he is likely just making sure he covers all the "legal" bases. In light of the FBI's illegal raid on NORFED (a political statement really) I think Dan Carr is smart for putting this statement in black and white where buyers can see it.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5828 Posts |
 Well put |
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Moderator
 United States
187950 Posts |
Some might say that they are not legal tender for the same reason why a bleached one dollar bill overprinted as a ten dollar bill is not legal tender.  Sure, no one here is going to try to spend one of these at face value, at least not on purpose, but if a proof coin can end up in circulation, so could one of these. Whether spent, stolen, or inherited, the legal waters get muddy when these fantasy pieces fall into the hands of the ignorant (as in uninformed, not stupid). I would feel much better about owning one if they were marked as per the HPA or a court was able to render a decision. To be honest, I would actually like to have the 1970 and 1975 Ikes, I am just not comfortable having them as the legality has not been tested. Ask yourself this, would you buy a one of these if they were made in China using the exact same method? It is actually okay to say no if the reason is akin to brand loyalty, but not if your reasoning is legal (Chinese counterfeits). |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
I am with Jbuck on this.
They may be called a "Fantasy" coin But as they are the same metal content and size of the circulating legal tender coins regardless of what date is put on these they are technically counterfeits.
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Moderator
Australia
16810 Posts |
The coin became no longer legal tender the moment the overstriking happened. If you mutilate a coin so that it is no longer "readily and clearly recognizable as to genuineness and denomination", the coin is no longer legal tender. In the case of these "overstruck fantasy coins", the original coin has been completely and utterly destroyed by the overstriking process. It is no more legal tender than if Daniel Carr had melted the coin down into an anonymous lump of silver. The fact that the as-good-as-melted-down piece of silver now happens to resemble a legal tender coin does not mean it actually is legal tender; it is no more legal tender than a counterfeit coin is.
Why people do not universally condemn these "fantasy coins" as illegal counterfeits utterly confuses me. Yes, they appear to be technically legal, mainly because your lawmakers never envisaged that anyone would be stupid enough to take a perfectly good coin and alter it in such a way that it became a "fantasy coin" that nevertheless still resembled a genuine one. They'd certainly be illegal in Canada, and in most other countries. Daniel Carr is using legal loopholery to make these things.
That's the murky and ambiguous US law as regarding their existence. The US law as regarding their attempted use as money is much clearer. It prohibits "fraudulently passing" an altered or mutilated coin. You bought a "fantasy coin" from Moonlight Mint? Then you should already know it is an altered coin and therefore not legal tender - Daniel Carr said so, right there on his website. It isn't a "real coin" anymore, it's a fantasy. If you deliberately and premeditatedly try to pass it as a real coin, you are doing so fraudulently and thus breaking the law.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4469 Posts |
I saw on the news last week where a child was given a $2 bill as a gift. She took the $2 bill to school and used it for lunch money. The police were called because the school thought the bill was fake. The secret service was called and the $2 confiscated. It turned out the bill was genuine.
Now what happens if the same thing happens with a Moonlight Fantasy Coin?
Edited by Slider23
05/13/2016 11:46 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5847 Posts |
Quote:
Why people do not universally condemn these "fantasy coins" as illegal counterfeits utterly confuses me. Actually, what confuses me is why some people readily accept these "fantasy coins" as not being illegal counterfeits but then condemn, say, Chinese-produced Morgan dollars that have impossible dates or mint marks. |
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Moderator
United States
187950 Posts |
Quote:Actually, what confuses me is why some people readily accept these "fantasy coins" as not being illegal counterfeits but then condemn, say, Chinese-produced Morgan dollars that have impossible dates or mint marks. Exactly why I asked the question above.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
It is peculiar that these Daniel Carr counterfeits seem to be acceptable to some collectors and yet a handful of fake Superman coins caused an absolute uproar here yesterday  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5847 Posts |
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Exactly why I asked the question above Yeah, and I noticed that nobody answered you, either. I guess I can stop taking it personally... |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1119 Posts |
Quote:
Some might say that they are not legal tender for the same reason why a bleached one dollar bill overprinted as a ten dollar bill is not legal tender Is it still not a one dollar bill? If I received it in change and unknowingly I were to put that in a vending machine or automated payment at a self checkout it would most likely still recognize it as a one dollar bill. I do agree it not legal tender as a ten dollar bill Quote:
If you mutilate a coin so that it is no longer "readily and clearly recognizable as to genuineness and denomination", the coin is no longer legal tender Is this true? Doesn't the government have a mutilated currency and coin redemption program? |
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Moderator
Australia
16810 Posts |
Yes, you can exchange mutilated coins through the redemption program. But they are no longer legal tender ie acceptable in payment of debts.
Further, in order for you to be reimbursed, they have to be examined by officials at the Philadelphia Mint as to their genuineness. If they could prove to themselves that the coin originally was a quarter, they'd credit you 25 cents for it. But I seriously doubt a Moonlight Mint fantasy would pass as genuine.
I do not know what the Mint would do with such a coin that was determined to be not genuine. I would assume it would be treated as counterfeit and confiscated, rather than returned to you.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote:
Is it still not a one dollar bill? If I received it in change and unknowingly I were to put that in a vending machine or automated payment at a self checkout it would most likely still recognize it as a one dollar bill. No it almost certainly would not recognize it. A bleached out $5 or larger might be recognizable from the security strip and watermark but not a $1. |
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Moderator
United States
54280 Posts |
Quote:
Yes, you can exchange mutilated coins through the redemption program. But they are no longer legal tender ie acceptable in payment of debts.
Further, in order for you to be reimbursed, they have to be examined by officials at the Philadelphia Mint as to their genuineness. If they could prove to themselves that the coin originally was a quarter, they'd credit you 25 cents for it. But I seriously doubt a Moonlight Mint fantasy would pass as genuine. There is no such exchange program. The mint will NOT pay you 25¢ for a mutilated or defaced quarter. From the Federal Reserve Bank website -- https://www.frbservices.org/operati...nd_coin.html"Bent or partial coin is coin that has been bent or twisted out of shape, punched, clipped, plugged, fused, or defaced, but that can be identified as to genuineness and denomination. Bent or partial coin is not redeemable at face value; it is redeemable only at its bullion (metal) value as established by the Director of the U.S. Mint. The Federal Reserve DOES NOT accept deposits of bent or partial coin. Bent or partial coin should be forwarded via 'Registered Mail, Return Receipt Requested' to the address below with documentation of the circumstances: United States Mint Independence Mall P.O. Box 400 Philadelphia, PA 19105" Show your financial support of the Coin Community Family (click here)See my topic on Mexican Numismatic Medals (click here)Edited by nss-52
05/14/2016 10:44 am
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Valued Member
United States
171 Posts |
The US Mint does have a mutilated coin redemption program. Current coins which can be identified as genuine are redeemed at the estimated total face value. Even a mass of partially melted coins is redeemable if identifiable as US coins. The redemption amount is based on the weight of the mass divided by the average weight per coin to yield the total number of coins in the mass. Coins have to be separated by denomination, and only CURRENT coins are eligible (no Eisenhower dollars, silver coins, etc.). However, this program is currently on hold while it is under administrative review. It seems that the US Mint was fleeced over a period of several years by the redemption of large quantities of intentionally-mutilated counterfeit US coins from China. |
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Replies: 31 / Views: 6,424 |
Posted 05/12/2016 9:04 pm
