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Replies: 29 / Views: 4,343 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2212 Posts |
We often read about thousands (if not millions) of coins--both modern and classic--sitting in bank vaults (and I believe each mint keeps a lot of them, too).
I wonder, what eventually becomes of these coins? I know that in the old days, they were often melted down. But what is the point of keeping them to begin with? For example, let's say by the end of the year, a bank or mint has a million 2016 dimes in storage. Now it's 2017. Would they introduce the 2016 coins into circulation, even though they're now an anachronism? If not, why keep them if they're never going to be used?
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
The Royal Australian Mint keeps about 1 1/2 years of stock coins in reserve, for issue into circulation as required by the commercial banks. The RAM hold them on behalf of the Australian Treasury.
In terms of coins intended for mass circulation, I would assume the U.S. policy is not much different to the Australian.
Bullion coins, such as sovereigns have little relevence, and most have long since been melted. Physical gold reserve is almost completely in the form of bullion bars.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4593 Posts |
A lot of the US Stockpile comes from congressionally mandated minting's (e.g. the dollar coins) for which there's no demand.
Melting them costs money, along with lost seigniorage, so they just sit.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
I was watching some business channel CNBC mentioned the Fed Reserve is paying this huge Atlanta bank a massive rental fee for vault space to house like about 10 million brand new Susan Antony dollars, so one would assume these coins don't get recycled.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4593 Posts |
Interestingly, a search in Congress.gov for seigniorage only finds one valid hit... H.R.3654 - 1996 Atlanta Centennial Olympic Games Commemorative Coin Act 102nd Congress (1991-1992) - 10/06/1992 Became Public Law No: 102-390 Quote: (5) SECRETARY- The term `Secretary' means the Secretary of the Treasury. (b) ESTABLISHMENT OF FUND- There is hereby established in the Treasury of the United States a revolving Numismatic Public Enterprise Fund consisting of amounts deposited in the fund under subsection (c)(2) of this section or section 221(b) of the United States Mint Reauthorization and Reform Act of 1992 which shall be available to the Secretary for numismatic operations and programs of the United States Mint without fiscal year limitation. (c) OPERATIONS OF THE FUND- (1) PAYMENT OF EXPENSES- Any expense incurred by the Secretary for numismatic operations and programs which the Secretary determines, in the Secretary's sole discretion, to be ordinary and reasonable incidents of the numismatic business shall be paid out of the Fund, including any expense incurred pursuant to any obligation or other commitment of Mint numismatic operations and programs which was entered into before the beginning of fiscal year 1993. (2) DEPOSIT OF RECEIPTS- All receipts from numismatic operations and programs shall be deposited into the Fund. (3) TRANSFER OF SEIGNIORAGE- The Secretary shall transfer monthly from the Fund to the general fund of the Treasury an amount equal to the total amount on the seigniorage of numismatic items sold since the date of any preceding transfer. So if the Treasury ordered them destroyed it would clearly appear on the Treasury accounts. But if they've sold them on to the Fed, it's not so clear... and Quote: (5) TRANSFER OF EXCESS AMOUNTS TO THE TREASURY- (A) IN GENERAL- At such times as the Secretary determines to be appropriate, the Secretary shall transfer any amount in the Fund which the Secretary determines to be in excess of the amount required by the Fund to the Treasury for deposit as miscellaneous receipts. (B) REPORT TO CONGRESS- The Secretary shall submit an annual report to the Congress containing-- (i) a statement of the total amount transferred to the Treasury pursuant to subparagraph (A) during the period covered by the report; (ii) a statement of the amount by which the amount on deposit in the Fund at the end of the period covered by the report exceeds the estimated operating costs of the Fund for the 1-year period beginning at the end of such period; and (iii) an explanation of the specific purposes for which such excess amounts are being retained in the Fund.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Actually the banks try not to have a lot of coins sitting in the vaults. Nor fo they have a lot of paper money there either. They try to have no more sitting around than they need for day to day business, with a small buffer amount just in case there is an unusual bump in daily outflow (You NEVER want to have a case where you can't come up with the cash when demanded if you are a bank). Amounts over that are shipped out as deposits to their parent banks and from the parent banks to their accounts at the Federal Reserve. Money just sitting in the bank vault is a dead asset. It is just sitting there taking up room and not earning anything. Surplus money shipped out and deposit can be used to make loans and return income from interest. A lot of the larger banks make money this way from making overnight loans to banks on the other side of the world. $100M loaned overnight at 1% per annum generates close to $3K in income.
Now once surplus cash reaches the Fed it may just sit there for awhile. But if too much starts piling up they stop placing orders for new coins or currency from the Mint and BEP. The Fed tend to ship out circulated coins before new ones. So if you are getting a lot of brand new coins from your bank all the time that means the Fed stockpile is low and they are shipping out more coins than are coming back in from the banks.
So where do all the coins go? Lost or in change jars all over the country. I know that sounds ridiculous, but if you do the math it turns out the average family of four only has to lose or remove from circulation four coins a WEEK to consume the entire annual mint production.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
I'm not sure if all banks are the same as to what they have in their vaults. However, some time back I found that if I went to an older, smaller bank I could ask for a bag of pennies for $50. For quite a while that worked great until those smaller banks got gobbled up by larger ones. For example one bank I went to was bought by a larger one in the next town. Then that one too got bought by a larger one. NOw I find in those larger banks I'm lucky to get a few rolls of anything. I've asked at several banks now about keeping bags of coins in their vaults and have been told just not allowed by the HOME office. BOA by me says large amounts of coins have to be ordered. Probably now just keep their lunches in those vaults.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2273 Posts |
There's a much smaller overhang of coins "in the system" then most people realize. The FED and mint trade out coins that have been in storage the longest. This is usually only about a 1 1/2 year supply but it can get up to around three years before all the coins turn over. Indeed, during huge changes in demand as in 2008 Coins appear to have gone into storage in some areas for as long as five years. Small imbalances will be corrected by shipping used coin from district to district or simply curtailing deliveries of new coin.
There is a huge overhang held by the public but this overhang tiurns over very rapidly. When times are good the change jars and piggy banks fill up more and when they're bad they are at lower levels. Now that coins have so little value it's a little more complex. But this overhang is still small relative the total number of coins in circulation. If they've made some 50 billion clad quarters then about 12 billion no longer exist. A billion are in federal hands. And three billion in change jars. Each year a few hundred million more are lost or destroyed and the economy requires another net increase of about half a billion.
Mintages are adjusted to reflect this discrepancy and projected demand.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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CCF Advertiser
United States
1533 Posts |
It is some weird math I cannot fathom that leads one to conclude that disposing of $100MM of coins that are not in circulation and will never be needed is a "loss" of $100MM. Its like saying if the Post Office had a fire, they'd lose $500K as all the stamps would burn up.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5246 Posts |
Here in Canada, now, banks simply do not have large numbers of coins sitting around. First of all, their vaults are not very big and I think quite a lot of the space is for Safety Deposit Boxes.
As Someone pointed out, it is also simply poor economics to sit on heavy piles of cash.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4333 Posts |
My wife was in banking for years, and many times in charge of the vault. The minimum cash needed is kept for day to day transactions. Also, whatever is in the vault has to go through inventory and balance, every single day at closing time.
When I listen to LED ZEPPELIN...so do my neighbors... Roll hunting since '77 Dirt fishing since '72
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4593 Posts |
Quote: It is some weird math I cannot fathom that leads one to conclude that disposing of $100MM of coins that are not in circulation and will never be needed is a "loss" of $100MM. Its like saying if the Post Office had a fire, they'd lose $500K as all the stamps would burn up. Not quite 100M... there is 7c or so in the cost, the profit that is recorded when a coin is 'issued' is like 93c. Not sure when the USPS records the asset, whether it's at the time of creation or sale. If you have $100 in your pocket and your pants burn up, don't you lose $100?
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2212 Posts |
Does it ever happen that the a bank or mint will release brand-new coins that are several years old? For example, someone has a lot of uncirculated 2014 dimes sitting in their vaults. Could they legally be put into circulation two years later?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Sure, they are still valid coins. At one time the Fed operated on a last in first out inventory system and if a lot of old coins were being returned by banks they would go out before new coins sitting in the vaults. New coins from the mint would also go out before the older new coins. Some times those new coins wouldn't go out for a long time. Today the procedure is circulated coins first, then the oldest non-circulated coins, then the new coins.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10038 Posts |
I cannot back it up, but was told by a respectable collector that 6 million 1943 pennies were dumped into the ocean as a way to get rid of them years ago. Never bothered to follow up on that story. Might google it someontime. A lot of the SBA dollars became subway tokens for the Baltimore, MD subway.
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halveshttps://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4593 Posts |
I don't think 'The Fed' has a policy. They have outsourced the handling of coin to private contractors (e.g. Loomis). Coins are delivered from the mint in balistic bags. It's the coin terminal that wraps them, distributrs them to banks, picks up extra coins from the banks. And thus is't the coin terminals that decide which to distribute first.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Replies: 29 / Views: 4,343 |