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1982 P Lincoln Cent With Possible "Rim Cud" Help Needed.

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Pillar of the Community
Halo1st's Avatar
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2775 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2017  10:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Halo1st to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Do you see the step down on the edge of the die? What if there were some grease in that location? Would that not affect that area?


I would think the effect of grease in the design rim would be no different than grease in the field. It would not make the materiel rise up, but rather prevent the development of the design rim same as if grease filled in the bust or other device.

I think grease in the dies design rim is less likely to be contained as its easy to clean off and secondly has an escape route between the die and collar.

The grease caught in the field is trapped and has nowhere to go. Thanks, Doug.

adding if it did manage containment it would appear as a depression on the coins rim, not raised on it.
Edited by Halo1st
01/19/2017 10:19 am
Bedrock of the Community
coop's Avatar
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62064 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2017  10:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The collar is what holds the grease on that edge of the die. It has not place to go, but blocks the formation on that area of the rim. Here is a simulation I've been working on:
1982-P-Lincoln-Cent-With-Possible-
Edited by coop
01/19/2017 10:49 am
New Member
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 Posted 01/19/2017  11:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Matt_Oneill_Sr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting. So maybe grease filled/finning/rim Cud but all options seem debatable...
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coop's Avatar
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 Posted 01/19/2017  11:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a better image of a die with the rim groove:
1982-P-Lincoln-Cent-With-Possible-
Edited by coop
01/19/2017 11:36 am
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Halo1st's Avatar
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2775 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2017  12:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Halo1st to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Was trying to find two decent obverse and reverse die images to make an overlay and ran across the below illustration which may suffice.

If any one of the four elements is out of alignment, worn, inadequate or broken then I would think containment is or can be breached. Thanks, Doug.

1982-P-Lincoln-Cent-With-Possible-

Image from http://www.1881o.com/dictionary.html

Adding: I'd like to think it all seals completely when properly aligned, but think it has to have some ever so slight clearance to wiggle.
Edited by Halo1st
01/19/2017 12:51 pm
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Halo1st's Avatar
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2775 Posts
 Posted 01/21/2017  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Halo1st to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I give up trying to locate a matching die, with rim Cud and MAD coin images for overlays. When I find the one, I can't find the other and when find the other I can't find the one. Feel like I'm stuck in the Matrix's. So I'm going back to basics I learned in first grade. Where I once got two star stickers for drawing circles.

Note the following examples are from Tjw645 (@ccf) 1981P quarter with misaligned die strike. Also Coop's example of it showing both sides. We didn't get confirmation about the reeding all the way round, but didn't seem to be out of round.

Original image
1982-P-Lincoln-Cent-With-Possible-

There is no rim Cud present, but thought the MAD would suffice in helping me make my point of where I focus my attention if one had been present on a MAD. Also to help illustrate what I mean by containment breach to one of the three die sides needed to create a normal design rim.

The blue shade represents the inner die face thats surrounded by the dies design rim.

The red shade represents the design rim located on the die face perimeter. See die images posted earlier to see the actual recessed perimeter that would form the design rim I'm noting here as the red zone.

1982-P-Lincoln-Cent-With-Possible-

1982-P-Lincoln-Cent-With-Possible-

When I say a rim Cud should include or be present in the design rim means it should rise above the actual design rim reflected as the red zone.

Anything thats raised outside of the red zone including false rims, gutter or folded pushed in material is not (always) representing an issue on or with the die itself. We have to take in account the whole die, which includes one side of the design rim is misaligned over the planchet during the strike.

Containment seems present by the reverse and collar dies, but partially missing on the East side of this obverse strike. Wish we had gotten confirmation about if the reeding went all the way round on this example, but I'm using it as a misaligned die strike example for now. Thanks, Doug.

Note I may scrap this post after submit as it seems kind of large. Can't tell until I click post.
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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 01/22/2017  04:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, Doug! Good work!
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 Posted 01/23/2017  08:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Matt_Oneill_Sr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, very good information! Thanks Doug. The images really help with gaining an understanding as to what is going on
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