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 Replies: 18 / Views: 2,893 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11899 Posts |
Trying to figure out this riddle. Below are two coins - both 1899 Indian Head cents graded MS67RD by NGC and PCGS respectively. Rick Snow, arguably the foremost expert on this series is offering these two coins. The NGC MS67RD is offered for $6,500. The PCGS MS67RD is offered for $16,500. The price difference is $10K. I actually like the NGC example better because the PCGS coin has very distracting marks on the cheek. Why do you think Rick Snow thinks the PCGS example is $10,000 better? Coin 1: NGC MS67RD - $6,500    Coin 2: PCGS MS67RD - $16,500    IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
898 Posts |
I'm not sure either. I agree with everything you pointed out.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
We'd need to know if these are the same Snow varieties.
I'd say the scratch directly left of the chin on the NGC coin is at least one reason.
A second would be that the 1899 in the NGC holder is already showing spotty darkening in places. This is a bad omen for a RD copper coin as it means it's started the transition from RD-RB-BN. Being a recent slab, perhaps Mr. Snow thinks that the toning is likely to progressively worsen over time in comparison to the PCGS Old Green Holder / OGH which is likely more stabilized by now and does not appear to be toning darker or spotting in places like the NGC coin. Given his extensive knowledge of these coins, he might also be worried that the NGC planchet shows telltales or giveaways that indicate it has impurities or contaminants which may also be likely to cause issues down the road. Color is a BIG deal at this grade level, and you don't want to spend this kind of money on an RD and then find out 5 years later it's now an RB or worse a BN, and Rick would certainly know what signs to look for in this regard.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
7234 Posts |
I just figured coins in the old PCGS green holders were usually graded on a higher standard back then and now may get a higher grade if resubmitted - but that's a pretty big 10,000$ IF!
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5682 Posts |
I like paralyse's theory about the potential for color change. Also, the PCGS coin looks like a stronger strike. The detail on the hair and necklace looks slightly weaker on the NGC coin, but I wouldn't think $10,000 weaker.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8520 Posts |
Message him and ask.
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
10743 Posts |
I'm not sure either the NGC is the best looking in my opinion but, if Rick Snow says the other is better, he's the man.!
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Rest in Peace
United States
18456 Posts |
I believe on the PCGS coin the first three feathers from left to right are sharper than the NGC Coin , also those berries or egg corn dingies  on reverse are sharper on the PCGS than the NGC . Obverse beads around neck sharper on PCGS than NGC . I'm sure there are more reasons to note ,but I haven't had my 2nd cup of coffee yet .  |
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Pillar of the Community
7234 Posts |
PCGS price guide shows 10,500$ for an 1899 MS67RD IHC. So the NGC is a deal!!  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3210 Posts |
I see a couple of things
the NGC example has a scratch left of the check as Adam pointed out, it also has a black spot around 3 o'clock on the obverse.
The PCGS coin has 2 slight hits on the cheek but otherwise no other marks, plus its in an older PCGS holder, which will also feed into its higher price.
I wouldn't necessarily want to pay over 10K more for a coin. Obviously see if you can contact Rick Snow and maybe see why he is asking the moon for a coin that is slightly better than the ms67 NGC example.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Tough call. Not sure I'd grade either of them 67, but I am sure I'd never pay that kind of money even if they were.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
I don't like the PCGS MS-67, Red because of the marks on the cheek. When you get to that grade, stuff like that matters when you charging $16,500 for a common date coin.
As for the difference, it comes down to the coin and more important the holder. I once had an 1848-C quarter eagle in SEGS MS-64. The coin was wonderful. I could have sold it to you for $6,000. A dealer had an 1848-C quarter eagle in a PCGS MS-64 holder. He wanted $20,000 for his coin. The differnece between the two was a small mark on the SEGS coin that required a 10X glass to see. I sold the SEGS to coin to one of the top dealers for the $6,000 and made a decent return. I will gurantee you that that coin was broken out of the holder.
The difference? The holder, plain and simple, but getting the coin into the PCGS holder and the same grade would be gamble that might work after several tries. I didn't play those games.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1096 Posts |
I think he accidentally added a one to the price on the PCGS one personally. I would go NGC on this one.
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Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts |
Ask him. Speculation has included quite a variety of possibilities, but I think you gotta go to the horse on this one
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1211 Posts |
The hits on the cheek and date of the PCGS coin really bother me. Almost to the point of calling it MS66, IMO. The color on the NGC coin is slightly worse, but barely. In this case, for the money, I would take the NGC coin.
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
11899 Posts |
Rick Snow was kind enough to weigh in on this question. Quote:Sorry, for taking so long to respond. I was away at a show and didn't see the post until now. RE: 1899 MS67RD The expensive one was actually long sold. The cheaper one is still in stock. It is a non-photo sealed coin in an NGC holder. The reason I have it at all is because it is part of a collection I have on consignment. The quality of the coin is what matters, that is why I now use the PDS grading system on all my new coin descriptions. It gives the ANA grade with the P (planchet), D (die) and S (strike) qualifiers. A super coin in a MS67RD holder is worth way more than a coin that does not make the grade in the same grade holder. The difference is especially true for MS67 coins of any type. Also, NGC is not so good at grading the high end. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Replies: 18 / Views: 2,893 |
Posted 03/27/2017 10:15 pm
