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China Empire Dollar (7 Mace 2 Candareens) Fake Until Proven Not...

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Mister Kairu's Avatar
United States
1911 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2017  1:38 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Mister Kairu to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi all, the LCS had this in the store today and the dealer I trust to be an honest man. That being said, I still think this China dollar is fake until proven not, and he may not be the most professional source on it. Just from looking at pictures, I would think the denticles seem off but also some of the spacings. Actually the more I look it definitely seems fake but wanted to double check with some more knowledgeable people on the forum. Weight was 26.60 grams which also seems a bit low for the wear (compared to the 26.86 it should be). Thanks for any input!

China-Empire-Dollar-7-Mace-2-Candareens-Fake-Until-Proven-Not...

China-Empire-Dollar-7-Mace-2-Candareens-Fake-Until-Proven-Not...

China-Empire-Dollar-7-Mace-2-Candareens-Fake-Until-Proven-Not...
Edited by Mister Kairu
04/17/2017 4:06 pm
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1915 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2017  2:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not sure about that 26.86 weight.
If I have the right coin in my book, it should be 39.5mm dia, 2.5mm thick and 26.7 grams.
So maybe a well worn coin might weigh 26.6 + or - some degree of error in the measure?
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Mister Kairu's Avatar
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1911 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2017  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mister Kairu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hm in that case the numista weight may be off then. Or I may have been looking at a wrong coin since there are a number of different provinces. Now that I recall I think that is what my dealer said too (26.70). Still the design of the coin doesn't look too right to me. Thanks for that correction!
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1915 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2017  4:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was reluctant to comment about the pictures because I would need pics showing better closer-up details with good focus.
I have a habit of carrying a small super-magnet as a spot check of Chinese coins when visiting coin dealers. Although not fool proof, it can be a sure thing if the coin is made of certain non-silver compositions ( and they very often are). A check for dia-magnetic reactions on a suspended super-magnet is now one of my standard checks.
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Justinokay's Avatar
United States
564 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2017  6:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Justinokay to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Doesn't this coin have a chop mark on it.
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34427 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2017  7:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@JO, yes there is, but some wiley counterfeiters add chopmarks to their creations to make them more convincing.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Mister Kairu's Avatar
United States
1911 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2017  7:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mister Kairu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My dealer said it looked like a legitimate chop mark to him.
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Spence's Avatar
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34427 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2017  8:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@MK, yep it certainly could be legit, I was just making the point that having a chop mark isn't a definitive sign of this piece being real. Without XRF, I'm not sure that I'd want to bet one way or another on this coin.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Mister Kairu's Avatar
United States
1911 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2017  10:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mister Kairu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the input.. Does anyone else see parts of the design that give this one away?
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1915 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2017  10:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd be curious about the very center of the small Manchu characters as well as seeing a better close-up of those characters.
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Mister Kairu's Avatar
United States
1911 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2017  11:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mister Kairu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can attempt to get a closer pic but I have yet to perfect close in pics unfortunately just got my cheap smartphone camera.
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X2an's Avatar
Sweden
1078 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2017  04:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add X2an to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree that the denticles do look a bit off and so do the lettering but the colour and wear seems standard for silver. I wonder if not the denticles and lettering were made with lesser quality at that time since I recall having the same "wobbly lettering" on a genuine but smaller Chinese coin from this era (7.2 Candareens). The word I'm primarily looking at is "Province", but other than slightly wobbly placement of the characters, the characters look alike and whole, without obvious casting bubbles.

The weight sounds right to me. Have you tried comparing the ring tone to another silver crown? Not by dropping but a gentle tap just to make a tone to compare with, mostly to confirm the silver.
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Mister Kairu's Avatar
United States
1911 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2017  08:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mister Kairu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I did not test the silver sound yet thought of it right after I left lol maybe if it is still there today I can try that with getting more pics.
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Australia
3831 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2017  08:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The date on this Jiangnan coin is 1904. Quite neat.

The technical weight of 7.2 mace should be around 27.2 grams as the weight of 1 mace is around 3.78g. However it was common for the standard silver coin to weigh around 26.7 grams. In provinces where silver was more expensive to procure, Jilin Province in particular - they are known to shave off weight so it was common to see coins as low as 26.2 to 26.5 grams. Those coins were removed from circulation as it was deemed to be underweight / not fulled back by proper silver content.

The weight is definitely on the lower side. I have a heavily damaged piece and it still came at 26.7 grams. However Jiangnan coins were also known to be on the slightly underweight side. At first glance, it looks positive however the chopmarks unfortunately do hurt the value. I guess if it's offered at a reasonable price and you really want a Chinese crown, it wouldn't hurt. They are quite pricey these days. It still doesn't hurt to be on the cautious side as counterfeits are known.

China-Empire-Dollar-7-Mace-2-Candareens-Fake-Until-Proven-Not...

Yes I know it's so heavily damaged - you can't quite tell what it is. But it's a Jiangnan coin dated 1898...
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries
My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm
Regularly updated at least once a month.
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Mister Kairu's Avatar
United States
1911 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2017  09:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mister Kairu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well from what I have seen of this coin (and have budgeted for my world crown collection) seems to be around $200-300 for one of these... he was going to sell it to me for $50 due to some rim damage and it's wear. I have gotten a number of crown sized coins from my lcs for quite cheap so luckily they like me. Thanks for the input everybody!
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Mister Kairu's Avatar
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1911 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2017  09:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mister Kairu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If I had the option to send this coin in to determine if genuine to a 3rd party grading, should I? I will see if we could do that and I would pay for it and if it is good I will take it. Looking at NGC prices seems this coin would be worth if genuine but also the condition is a little less than optimal.
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