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 Replies: 28 / Views: 10,261 |
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Valued Member
Canada
74 Posts |
In a previous post, I showed how PCGS graded toned coins.
Now, I listed the grade I got with PCGS from coins previously graded by ICCS.
I selected the 41 coins I was thinking and hoping would grade the same or grade better.
As I heard PCGS look more at high-point compare to ICCS who is more sensitive of marks in the fields, I selected coins accordingly.
Below are the result which were not what I was hoping.
I got good upgrade on high-value coins which will cover the overall PCGS cost.
But they were many surprise such as:
A MS-66 1949 dollar I was hoping to get MS-67 (+1) and then got MS-63 (-3).
A coins that was previously graded MS-66 by NGC and also cross-graded MS-66 by ICCS and got MS-64 (-2) ?
And 2 coins graded MS by ICCS that were graded as Proof-Like which I think is a mistake by PCGS.
On average, I got -0.6 lower grade from PCGS.
ICCS PCGS Delta
MS-65 MS-65 0
MS-65 MS-65 0
MS-65 MS-65 0
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-65 MS-65 0
MS-65 MS-66 +1
MS-65 MS-66 +1
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-65 MS-65 0
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-65 MS-65 0
MS-66 MS-65 -1
MS-64 MS-65 +1
MS-64 MS-65 +1
MS-66 MS-63 -3 Surprising
MS-64 MS-65 +1
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-64 MS-65 +1
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-65 MS-65 0
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-66 MS-66 0
MS-65 MS-66 +1
MS-66 MS-64 -2 Was also NGC MS66
MS-63 MS-63 0
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-65 MS-65 0
MS-63 MS-63 0
MS-66 MS-65 -1
MS-66 MS-65 -1
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-65 MS-66+ +1.5
MS-65 MS-64 -1
MS-65 MS-63 -2
MS-66 PL-66 0 MS to Proof Like
MS-65 PL-66 +1 MS to Proof Like
-24 Average -0.6
Summary for the 41 coins
12 Got same grade (29%)
9 Got better grade (22%)
20 Got lower grade (49%) (2 lower by 2 and 1 lower by 3)
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Valued Member
Canada
324 Posts |
interesting results, thank you for sharing. did you notice patterns in the grading such as all or most silver dollars went up, or all/most quarters went down, etc?
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Valued Member
Canada
187 Posts |
Interesting experiment. If you are able, can you give an estimate on the increase or decrease in value of the coins from the new grades you got?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Very interesting data. The average spread is smaller than I would have guessed.
Edited by Coinfrog
10/28/2017 2:18 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
I honestly believe that in general ICCS lacks grading consistency at all grades. This exercise also squashes the myth that US TPGs consistently over grade Canadian uncirculated coins. We still have some issues in the VF-AU range but even this range is becoming less of a problem. Especially with newer ICCS holders.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
I find this scenario actually sad. To think that a differing opinion from a TPG company will raise the value of a coin. It is an opinion. No more no less. They ( TPG) just made a bag full of money and you now believe your collection is worth more. Sad to say the least. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts |
NGC and PCGS are much easier to understand than the thousands of individual sellers who all have their own opinion. Buy raw on ebay and enjoy if you don't like TPG s |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
I am a true believer that in this day and age of online trading, coin grading offers a baseline for any given coin. In the end, the coin will decide the price. As is well known, there are pretty MS-65 coins and ugly ones. They price will reflect that.
Edited by TheCoinHunter
10/28/2017 4:39 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
The results don't surprise me.
Variance in grading by all professional grading companies are far too common, yet very understandable.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Submitting to the major TPGs is a crapshoot and always has been. You can improve your odds with study and experience, but they're hardly a guarantee. In the end, if you're spending decent money with investment in mind, you have little choice. The surviving TPG giants exploited a huge gap in the hobby (skyrocketing prices for raw, subjectively-graded coins in a data-driven economy) and took it to the moon. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3540 Posts |
Agree with Coinfrog.
Would be interesting to toss a curve in this..... Ever contemplated sending some of the coins that downgraded to the green/gold sticker company? IF the value would be worth the exercise...of course.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5239 Posts |
This confirms something that I have have always said. There is always a certain amount of subjectivity or uncertainty in coin grading. I am assuming that both the TPGs are competent, so that the subjectivity is lower than untrained/ unskilled people would give, but it cannot be eliminated. The real problem here is a practical one in that such huge sums of money can be at stake for even a 1 point grade difference.
Given this, would you be prepared to pay 3-10 times the price for something based on the subjective opinion of a single trained expert?
Anyone who is prepared to pay a hugely increased price for a 1 or 2 point higher grade should inspect the coin and decide for themselves if it merits the higher rating.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts |
Hughes, Thanks for sharing that bad experiment with us.. I did not have that experience though. Quote:
You can improve your odds with study and experience I did send in a lot more than that but my ICCS coins were the older 2 letter embossed certs and almost all came back as expected and also a few great surprises. A few went from 55 to 63 and I did expect that to take place..62 went 64..added some nice 66's in the smaller decimals..etc.. ..a few stayed the same and one went down a point and a few ungraded came back with "questionable color" and I will look into those few.. Thankfully, I had never moved one coin in those older ICCS certs..they were that badly under-graded when compared to modern grades..I actually left the hobby for many years because of those grades on my prized coins....I felt that I was being "how should I say"...? ..nasty>>.. When I went in and payed the large bill and picked up my 5 long white boxes of coins, all I was asked by the older ICCS owner/grader was.." Are they for sale ?"..and not another word about the coins themselves..I had never met him before... I was told by many of the best Canadian coin collectors who did see the older certs to get them down to PCGS. A lot of pushing and prodding before I finally did it.. I'm very pleased in my case.. . Edited by DEVLEC
10/29/2017 10:35 am
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Moderator
 Canada
10456 Posts |
An important element is missing here, which HuguesGervais has already mentioned in another post.
With this submission, PCGS did weed out the coins with questionable colour and toning. Something that ICCS does not do...
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Moderator
Canada
10456 Posts |
Quote:To think that a differing opinion from a TPG company will raise the value of a coin. I guess it depends whose opinion you value more... I value my own opinion the most. This one was in a ICCS MS-62 brown holder, and the two top NFLD collectors I know (Bob and Rob) think it is still under-graded at MS-64... https://www.PCGS.com/SetRegistry/my...63059/117576So yes, it is valued more, and my eye knew that as soon as I spotted it languishing in that ICCS MS-62 flip. "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts |
So it begs the question, ...Why would "the best Canadian Grader" put that fabulous cent in a 62 flip ? I know, I know,..it's just a professional 'opinion'...  |
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Replies: 28 / Views: 10,261 |
Posted 10/28/2017 2:00 pm
