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Where Is The Line Drawn For Counterstamp Legality?

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chafemasterj's Avatar
United States
6514 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2017  5:35 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add chafemasterj to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
From what I understand counterstamping Lincoln Cents is perfectly legal. Finding one of these can make someone's day. They can be fun to make and send out into circulation for those who are paying attention to discover.

What if someone goes dark? Possibly stamping them with obscenities or uses that little space to the right of Lincoln's head to be vulgar or take a political stance, "Vote for ME!","Don't vote for HIM!". There are all sorts of scenarios that could happen... Where is the line drawn? Is there a legal threshold that if crossed you could have the Department of the Treasury knocking on your door?



Check out my counterstamped Lincoln Cent collection:
http://goccf.com/t/303507
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
187702 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2017  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the only line to cross is one where the counterstamped coin is intended to defraud is on the other side.
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Biedercoins's Avatar
United States
1601 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2017  6:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Biedercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

I didn't think it was legal at all, just overlooked.
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Alpha2814's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 12/18/2017  7:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alpha2814 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, there was that thing in 2007 when 20th Century Fox released a bunch of quarters promoting the Fantastic Four sequel (the one with the Silver Surfer). The Mint didn't like that, as advertising on coins is also against the law. (Similarly, "Where's George?" can't sell their own rubber stamps to mark bills because that is construed as advertising.)

Found a reference: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/b...quarter.html

That said, they probably wouldn't come after you if you stamped a handful of coins with a simple statement (and they probably wouldn't be able to track you down anyway), because the degree of influence is so small. But if you were to release a whole bunch with an obvious promotion like Fox did, it would certainly get their attention.
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fioti's Avatar
United States
4212 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2017  7:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fioti to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Over the years, I've seen about any obscenity you can think of. I think the denomination

with the most, would be the various lg. cent pieces.
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moxking's Avatar
United States
17900 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2017  8:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yep - the old large cents had some really dirty C/s.

It's not worth worrying about, in my opinion. No one really cares.
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oriole's Avatar
Canada
5238 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2017  8:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is all very well to speculate, but what is the wording in the US law about altering/ defacing coins?

In Canada, the criminal code says that it is an offence to "deface a current coin", although I cannot locate the legal definition of defaced.

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RoyCoinBoy's Avatar
United States
1609 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2017  8:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RoyCoinBoy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As far as I know, it's legal to destroy or deface US currency as long as you aren't doing it in order to deceive someone into believing or to spend as if it was a higher denomination than intended.
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Alpha2814's Avatar
United States
2023 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2017  9:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alpha2814 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Title 18, section 475 is the code that prohibits advertising on currency: "Whoever designs, engraves, prints, makes, or executes, or utters, issues, distributes, circulates, or uses any business or professional card, notice, placard, circular, handbill, or advertisement in the likeness or similitude of any obligation or security of the United States issued under or authorized by any Act of Congress or writes, prints, or otherwise impresses upon or attaches to any such instrument, obligation, or security, or any coin of the United States, any business or professional card, notice, or advertisement, or any notice or advertisement whatever, shall be fined under this title."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/475

Section 331 covers fraud (as discussed here); 333 covers malicious mutilation (i.e. destruction, or rendering currency otherwise unusable).

Edit to clarify defacing (copied from the Law.Cornell site linked above):

Section 331:

Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or

Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

Section 333:

Whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
Edited by Alpha2814
12/18/2017 9:04 pm
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 12/19/2017  11:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You will note from the laws that Alpha2814 posted that other than the clause about advertising being placed on coins, you can do pretty much anything to a coin as long as there is no intent to defraud.

Currency (paper money) on the other hand requires no intent to defraud, merely rendering it "unfit to be re-issued" is illegal.

In terms of the law, coins are NOT considered to be "currency".
Edited by Conder101
12/19/2017 11:10 am
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willieboyd2's Avatar
United States
524 Posts
 Posted 12/19/2017  2:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add willieboyd2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It isn't illegal to alter coins unless fraud is involved.

Several years ago Pres. Obama pardoned a man who was convicted in the 1960's of filing down pennies to pass as dimes in vending machines.

The man had plead guilty to "coin mutilation" and the pardon got a lot of publicity.

https://www.brianrxm.com
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chafemasterj's Avatar
United States
6514 Posts
 Posted 12/19/2017  4:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chafemasterj to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you everyone for your input and Thank you Alpha
Quote:
Title 18, section 475
for the cold hard facts.


Just so it's clear...I was asking for a friend...
Check out my counterstamped Lincoln Cent collection:
http://goccf.com/t/303507
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
187702 Posts
 Posted 12/19/2017  5:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Just so it's clear...I was asking for a friend...
Sure you were.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16806 Posts
 Posted 12/19/2017  7:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To sum up the specific instances mentioned in the OP:

Obscenities/vulgarity: it is not a federal offence. There are, however, likely to be local/state laws against such things being displayed in public or sold. As a general rule, if you aren't allowed to paint it on your house, you wouldn't be allowed to stamp it onto a coin either.

Political statements: this is a grey area. "Vote for Bill Smith" would clearly be advertising (and thus a federal offence), but a more general ideological statement seems to be OK. For example, this guy counterstamps nickels with generic slogans, putting words into Jefferson's mouth, and as far as I know they've never been in legal trouble for it.

One interesting observation: Section 333 prohibits the mutilation of Federal Reserve notes (green seal) and National Bank Notes (brown seal) but does not cover United States Notes (red seal) or Silver Certificates (blue seal), which were issued directly by Treasury and not "by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System". Presumably, if you can get your hands on some of those old notes, you're allowed to mutilate these to your heart's content.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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oriole's Avatar
Canada
5238 Posts
 Posted 12/19/2017  8:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In case anyone wonders, those are United States laws. In Canada it is illegal to deface a current coin; intent is not part of the law. However, Canadians can deface US coins!
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
187702 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2017  10:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sometimes, although very rarely, Canada gets it wrong.

You still have us beat with the large denomination coins. A stronger victory, in my opinion.
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