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 Replies: 15 / Views: 2,591 |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5393 Posts |
Sort of along the lines of another recent post , bemoaning dropping Trends and the " anemic " Canadian Coin Market, a Market contrast.
I am in London at present on one of my European buying trips. The current market for milled English is very strong with most series selling for multiples
of estimate . Sovereigns of William IV , Victoria Young Head selling for double or triple estimate. Last two trips , I have sat through three different auctions , all the same . The mix of buyers is rather curious too.
Not just aging boomers like myself , but sharply dressed suit and tie guys that could be my grand children, they are that young.
High Grade 1887 Jubilee Coinage in nice grade that did not sell for ages is non existent and commands well over Catalogue in GEF to Mint State.
The famous coin lots that were once easy to acquire .....long gone!
These are just a few observations . I have been coming to London for over 35 years and must say that the current English market is as strong as I have ever seen. Trends or catalog are meaningless , if it is nice it is gone.
The Feb 3rd London Coin Fair was jammed with eager buyers . Before the show opened they were lined up out to the side walk past the front entrance to the show. All this with Brexit hanging over the UK.
All this in marked contrast to what we are witnessing in Canada . You can fire off a cannon at a lot of Coin Shows here and not hurt a soul.
Trying to sell a hundred dollar coin for a realistic price is pretty tough.
Many whining about Trends and catalogue pricing.
One has to wonder why ?
Certainly has little to do with bullion prices . The Canadian economy is allegedly on fire according to Stats Can and Mr Socks. Edited by Pacificoin
02/07/2018 7:26 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
I still say the Canadian market in general is missing young collectors, when I see a young collector they are seemingly interested in themed NCLT, as everyone knows with a very very few exceptions NCLT will create an immediate loss thus losing that collector.
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Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts |
Every hobby has seen markets destroyed by limited edition excess. Comics in the mid to end of the 80's, sports cards early 90's, and any other collecting group you can think of. It is impossible to buy each years RCM unless you have money to burn. Every dollar going into that sucking chasm is lost to the entire collecting fraternity. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
Interesting report on the overseas coin market.
Encouraging news.
We'll have to wait and see what happens here in Canada.
For the present, I'm not holding my breath.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
As a collector of Victorian issues I have to agree with you, OP. Even here in the US, coins which wouldn't have gone anywhere but a dealer's bargain bin are suddenly getting bids, and strong ones on that. The silver market seems to be quite strong across the grade spectrum, not just in the medium to higher grades (gVF to EF and above) but also down to heavily circulated examples. The copper market (British trade tokens / Conder tokens) has also been gathering a nice head of steam, especially with choice grades, higher scarcities and muled die strikes, which were already short in supply beforehand.
I am loath to link that to nationalist sentiments across the pond. Ye Merry Olde England of Victoria, or the poetic Albion of the Tudors and Stuarts, are as much a distant memory as the 'chips, one and six' of George VI's latter days. I'm sure some might be interested in pre-decimal coinage as a tangible link to those times; but I am not quite sure yet if you can say that anti-European skepticism is really creating a resurgent interest in British history in general or British numismatics in particular. It's certainly a topic which merits study and analysis going forward.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
I just purchased the latest edition of the guide covering pre-decimal British coinage. In it, the author (as of November 2017) bemoans the lack of interest in the genre by younger collectors in the U.K., who he sees as favoring the post-1970 reform issues.
I have said this much here before - at least in my part of Arizona the interest in anything with a British monarch on the obverse seems virtually nil. British or Canadian, dealers around these parts routinely consign all such to the "junk" or "bargain" bin with nary a second glance.
Colligo ergo sum
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
665 Posts |
@ Moxking Quote:
Every hobby has seen markets destroyed by limited edition excess.
Agree but the UK market is different. The Royal Mint in the UK is worse than the RCM when it comes to NCLT. They issue multiple "Crown" sized coins in silver, silver piedfort and gold every year. Like the RCM there are multiple year sets issued in finishes from base metal Unc/PL through Silver Proof but for those who eschew NCLT, the market is much larger. In Canada, the RCM is only 110 years old and there is only another 30-50 years of imported coins with Canada as a country or province. Look at 5-7 coins each year and there are not that many coins to find... Not suggesting that there aren't difficult to find key dates but overall the "complete" list isn't that long. In the UK, they have been generating Milled coins since the reign of Elizabeth I (mid 1600's). On top of that, before decimalization in 1971, you had a range of coins from fractional farthings to sovereigns and guineas. There are multiple options in copper, silver and gold where a collector can specialize. Since it is more unlikely that someone could "collect them all" specialization is more prevalent and with much higher mintages, even older coins are still available at reasonable prices albeit in lower grades. The point is, that even with an out of control NCLT practice, there is still plenty of opportunity for individuals with all budgets to develop a circulation set or subset. |
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Valued Member
Canada
402 Posts |
a) I hope you are having an enjoyable time.
b) I suspect there is a nostalgia factor at work as well. The eras of the coins you mention are certainly from UK golden age and with Brexit looming and innate anxiety as to what the future brings (especially since many in the financial community may be forced to move)....a natural tendency to look to the more stable "golden past"
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1949 Posts |
Jack, you are absolutely correct on the strength of the British coin market right now, especially in accurately graded pieces. I noticed some of this in my last European trip, but especially in major auctions in the last few months. I had some conversations at the NY international with some dealers of very high end British material, and they told me that cream of the crop British stuff has been going to a couple a serious Chinese buyers of British. Tying it all back around, some of the nicer Canadian material I've ended up with recently all came from Europe!
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Bedrock of the Community
United Kingdom
17901 Posts |
I've noticed two trends in the last few years. One is that lots of people are saving commemorative 50p and £2 coins from change, and some of those are becoming interested in other coins. The interest started at the time of the 2012 Olympics, grew with the Beatrix Potter coins and got a boost with the introduction of the new pound coin last year. The other trend I've noticed is an increase in interest in anything from Victoria or earlier. Victorian halfpennies in VG and George II halfpennies in Fair that would have been in dealers' junk bins a few years ago are now in 2x2's in albums and priced at several pounds. There's also a lot more interest in die varieties and mis-strikes nowadays: many GB collectors simply ignored these in the past.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5393 Posts |
@ JDmern . Not only the Chinese buyers ( they are making me quite Comfortable as well these days) but the Japanese are back at it in the British Market as well.
A couple of examples from the Argentum auction at the London Fair on Feb 3 . A rather crappy cleaned VF 1847 Gothic Crown fetched ( both before premium) nearly 1200 Pounds !! Contrast that with the 1948 Canada Silver Dollar , a decent flashy AU which brought only 460 pounds . Gives me a strong indication what market is going in what direction.
Even common Vicky Crowns which were in the trade for 18- 20 Pounds as late as October are now 24 Pounds , if and a big if you can find a parcel.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2984 Posts |
Quote:
All this in marked contrast to what we are witnessing in Canada . You can fire off a cannon at a lot of Coin Shows here and not hurt a soul I am sure The London Coin Fair is a national event that draws people from all of UK and from abroad. Is there an equivalent one in Csnada? The problem is with local shows. There is just not enough high quality product there. I never can find what I want in local shows so there is no point in going. I have not gone recently to the coin show in Burnaby lately, but when they first moved there, there was about less than 10 dealers there. Just not enough selection to choose from. I am sure there must be a lot of top dealers at the London Coin Fair. The selection of coins and currency must be tremendous. Edited by MoneyPenney
02/08/2018 8:30 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5393 Posts |
No that is not the case at all. The London Coin Fair is hardly a national event. Held 4 X times a year and maybe 65 tables. A comparison would be Torex Toronto as to Size and scale. The upcoming Feb 11 Midland Coin Fair in Birmingham UK is similar in scale ( 40 plus dealers ) and is a monthly event. You are correct in that there is lots of material to choose from.
In fairness the Vancouver shows have come back from deaths door and have been quite well attended the last few years. The North Shore Numismatic society is to be commended. We have been very happy with the results. A lot of the action in Vancouver is a direct result of the very well heeled Chinese customers.
Edited by Pacificoin
02/08/2018 9:52 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
I'll take a Gothic Crown in any grade, crappy or otherwise. :)
Edit: It should not go without mention that numismatics in the UK has a history going back over 2,000 years to Roman and Celtic times. Canada has less than 300 years, by way of comparison. There were also a great many more denominations of coins struck in Britain than were ever struck for Canada.
For instance, in 1858, a collector of British issues had a farthing, a ha'penny, a penny, a threepenny bit, a groat, a sixpence, a shilling, a florin, a crown, and a gold sovereign to collect, not including the Maundy set which also had a half-groat or tuppence. They also had the other issues to collect, such as the Straits Settlements, Isle of Man, British India, British East Africa, Scotland, Ireland, Jersey, etc.
A Canadian collector of that same year of 1858 had only one-cent, five-cent, ten-cent, and twenty-cent issues. There were not provincial issues to collect (NS, NFL, NB, PEI) for another 3 years to come.
This makes it easier (and somewhat necessary) for British collectors to specialize in a particular monarch, denomination, or metal; specialization drives prices upwards as a smaller group of more-active buyers are competing in the market for the same number of items.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Edited by paralyse
02/08/2018 10:25 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
992 Posts |
If you want young people to collect coins, or read books, or simply interact with society, then take their phones away from them. Phone addicts don't become collectors of anything, except an App.
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New Member
Canada
39 Posts |
England doing ok, the US is doing ok. I would suggest that the average coin collector in Canada just don't have the disposable income and most don't view rare coins as investments. The Canadian real estate market has been on fire (nuclear) for the last 10 years and the cost of living has dramatically increased. Cash poor , house rich. (for now) Wages are stagnant and playing catch up with interest rates rising so it will take another while for all that to play out.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 2,591 |
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Posted 02/07/2018 8:56 pm
