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1957-D Lincoln Die Or Mach. Doubling ?

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Indian1's Avatar
United States
3640 Posts
 Posted 06/17/2008  6:06 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Indian1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi

The D is also doubled. Not so clear in pic. but the same
as the date.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008...2906/57d.jpg
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coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 06/17/2008  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Machine doubled. One of the years the extreme Machine Doubling happened on Wheat cents. The machine doubled 1968 & 69 are the extreme ones for the memorial series. Not that it can't happen on other years, just more common on these three years.
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chuckster 125's Avatar
United States
4113 Posts
 Posted 06/17/2008  6:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chuckster 125 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Coop:

Check the number 5 again- is it the picture or am I seeing Machine Doubling on the outside lower part of the 5 and legitimate doubling on the inside and the top of the 5 and 7?
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Indian1's Avatar
United States
3640 Posts
 Posted 06/17/2008  7:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Indian1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Chiming in on Chuckster.
Nothing on the top or inside of the 57
It's just the pic. However, It is also on the upper
left side of the 7 (crossbar)
The MM is doubled on the right side only.
By the By, I keep forgetting what were the years on the
MM application by hand so to speak. When it started / stopped.
How then would the 57 MM also be doubled along with the date
if it was applied after... (depends on the answer I guess :)
Valued Member
seattleMD's Avatar
United States
405 Posts
 Posted 06/17/2008  7:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seattleMD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not sure if you are classifying Die Deterioration Doubling as Machine Doubling coop, but I believe this is mostly Die Deterioration Doubling. Here is how I describe the differences:

Machine / Strike Doubling - If the doubled devices appear of normal dimensions and the doubling is flat and shelf-like.

Die Deterioration Doubling - If the doubled devices appear smaller than normal, especially in width, and the doubling is flat and shelf-like. Sometimes also demonstrated by seeing the flat doubling on both sides of the device.

Technically, I believe Die Deterioration Doubling could also contain Machine Doubling and you wouldn't know.

I'm no expert, but from my experiences on this forum, that's what I've come to define them as.


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coop's Avatar
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62064 Posts
 Posted 06/18/2008  12:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Machine Doubling produces what the full name means: Machine Doubling Damage. The metal is pushed into an abnormal shape and usually never two from the same die pair is exactly alike. Movement varies with each strike. Some minor/major/monster MDD.

Die Deterioration is the opposite of what you are thinking. Die wear makes the devices wider as the die ages. When the die wear gets real sever (usually toward the rim)the wear get even larger and makes it appear there is a doubling of the devices, which is only because of the extreme die wear.

Earlier die state doubled dies that may be minor/medium in spread towards the rim, may wear away with use on the dies. This sometimes erase the doubling, so earlier die state coins will show the doubling better. But some of the stronger spreads will remain to later in the dies life.

Machine Doubling can affect doubled dies as well. I found one on the reverse of a Memorial cent. It is split in 1/2 right up the middle. The right half of the coin is a doubled die, the left 1/2 is Machine Doubling. Even the steps on the base tips are divided accordingly. So just because a coin is a variety, it can also suffer from Machine Doubling as well.

It all depends on the coin. What did it go through when struck/what dies were used/how the coin was handled till you got it. All are factors on coins. Every once in a while something new will find its way under your scope and you have to be open minded enough to recognize it.
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foundinrolls's Avatar
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3507 Posts
 Posted 06/18/2008  02:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coop has it covered:-) It's simple Machine Doubling and nothing more.
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seattleMD's Avatar
United States
405 Posts
 Posted 06/18/2008  1:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seattleMD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's still not clear to me, but I do have this Mint Errors book that I'm reading through and I'm hoping they have more detailed descriptions. I really want to reach the level where I can directly correlate most everything I see on a coin to a physical action in the minting process instead of relying on more generic descriptions like Machine Doubling.
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coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 06/18/2008  2:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Seattle: Try this. When you see an image on the site, try to see what you think happened to it. Follow the thread and see what other add. When the thread is usually completed the answer is found. So when you see the first image see what you think. Read and see if your correct. If you don't know, wait for the answer or read through the thread carefully. Thus adding your background on coins. Slowly brick by brick you build the thought process and learn, sometimes you have to rebuild/add to what you know to keep the building progressing. And when you think you know it all, then something new comes up. The hobby is a learning process, that is why we love it.
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