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PCGS- "Professional" Opinions Are Just That!

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jbuck's Avatar
United States
189767 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2018  3:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How many buy coins only if there is a return policy strictly from a photo? If you do, you either have money to burn or you are a fool...well, or both!
Of the 16 graded Ikes that I have bought, only one was purchased in hand. The others I bought based on photos, but very good ones, IMHO. I guess I am a fool.
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2018  05:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How many buy coins only if there is a return policy strictly from a photo? If you do, you either have money to burn or you are a fool...well, or both!


Even though pictures are inferior to having a coin in hand for grading, buying coins online doesn't make someone a fool or mean they're throwing money away. Trying to cherry pick higher value raw coins online can be a fools errand, but the online market is bigger than the in-person market at this point and it isn't because everyone is a fool
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Alpha2814's Avatar
United States
2023 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2018  12:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alpha2814 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How many buy coins only if there is a return policy strictly from a photo?


Some of us don't have that many options for in-hand purchases. I greatly prefer listings that have multiple photos from different angles, but if there's only one picture of each side, I'll zoom in and scrutinize the heck out of it before I even consider throwing money at it. Sure, I've had a few regrets but mostly I've been content (and sometimes pleasantly surprised) at what I received.
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Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2018  3:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We seem to have posters claiming that they have never seen a Trueview image with the issues that I've raised (even someone claiming to have submitted "thousands" of world coins).
Yet I can find hundreds of Trueview images with the faults I've mentioned. As an example I was the underbidder on a 1953 florin (graded PCGS ms64 with gold shield) with slab number 27945966
Australia ebay item 22294090528 (ended 1st June 2018)
Fault 1The obverse image is very blurry (I can barely make out a die crack that is a particular die marker).
Fault 2The reverse image has cropped off much of the rim and made identification difficult.
So the stupidity of PCGS poor photography has cost the seller hundreds of dollars as that coin has a rim type worth at least 5 times as much as the standard rim (the large denticle variety). Only the winning bidder (besides myself) spotted the variety so the coin sold for $271 (worth at least $500). My bid wasn't that high (I already have a few so I wasn't bidding hard) but had the winning bidder not also spotted the variety it would have sold for as low as $41 (my bid was winning at that low level until the last minute).
What is the antonym of Troll? Seems to be the usual suspects defending PCGS and attacking posters such as myself and SuperPoacher74 for questioning PCGS infallibility.
I could also mention that PCGS has yet again cost another seller at least a few hundred (but more likely at least 20 large) when they recently slabbed another large denticle florin as the common small denticle (PCGS cert no 84966152). I picked it up for $125 (and as the large denticle variety worth $500+). Of course PCGS in their infallible way didn't even spend time studying the coin. It was struck with chrome dies (very rare to find that, occasionally find either obverse or reverse was chromed) and better yet the obverse die was the same die used to strike the super pricey specimens. So they missed that it was an even scarcer variety of the '53 specimen florin that I now own.
That is a fun thing about buying PCGS graded coins, most people only look at the grade and accept PCGSs word. But looking at the coin itself you can find a misidentified rarity going cheaply.
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Optimist-numismatist's Avatar
Canada
683 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2018  3:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Optimist-numismatist to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
.What is the antonym of Troll? Seems to be the usual suspects defending PCGS and attacking posters such as myself and SuperPoacher74 for questioning PCGS infallibility.


I have seen people called a troll for lightly criticizing TPGs on major mistakes and just for questioning TPGs. (The term 'troll' has pretty much become a misused buzzword to use towards people you disagree with).
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Crazyb0's Avatar
10197 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2018  4:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How many buy coins only if there is a return policy strictly from a photo?


Ya'all missed the point. WE ALL buy coins by picture, I do as well, my LCS "If it ain't gold it ain't sold" philosopy does little for the basic coin collector. My point of emphasis was meant to be this(underlined to make the point):


Quote:
Any picture, as good as they may be will Never replace the hands on inspection of a coin.


No photo image will ever replace the human Mark 1 eyeball. Couple that with the knowledge of coins and specifics attributes and you have the winning combination. Unlessyou are lucky, or have "seen something" in a picture, to just purchase WITHOUT ability to return lands many in deep troubles. Personally, I will take those risks at times, if "I see something" or even as a hunch...but I don't lose my nut (Scrat) over not getting something I thought I saw. Return policies are nice, but not the precursor for a purchase , without them you should accept any and all the risks that may come if you purchase solely by pixed coins.
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
189767 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2018  10:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
but the online market is bigger than the in-person market at this point and it isn't because everyone is a fool
Agreed.


Quote:
No photo image will ever replace the human Mark 1 eyeball.
Also agreed. I wish I could buy more coins in person. The coin shows have been great for filling my Dansco albums, but the selection of graded Ikes is rather sparse.
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 06/04/2018  10:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Australia ebay item 22294090528 (ended 1st June 2018)

Can you post a link and not just the number, I can't find it. (had this happen several times now, I suspect ebay is starting to pull auctions once they end.)
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 06/04/2018  10:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Australia ebay item 22294090528 (ended 1st June 2018)
Fault 1The obverse image is very blurry (I can barely make out a die crack that is a particular die marker).
Fault 2The reverse image has cropped off much of the rim and made identification difficult.
So the stupidity of PCGS poor photography has cost the seller hundreds of dollars as that coin has a rim type worth at least 5 times as much as the standard rim (the large denticle variety). Only the winning bidder (besides myself) spotted the variety so the coin sold for $271 (worth at least $500). My bid wasn't that high (I already have a few so I wasn't bidding hard) but had the winning bidder not also spotted the variety it would have sold for as low as $41 (my bid was winning at that low level until the last minute).


It's funny how you always see errors no one else does, I know that was pointed out in the Australia thread as well. Good on you if you can find the minuscule amount of mistakes, but just like nothing run by humans is perfect I seriously doubt your error finding rate is perfect.

As far as the picture, the obverse really isn't blurry it's a hard surface to capture. The reverse was cropped a little short by the software but both issues would have been solved with an email to Phil who is extremely helpful and easy to work with and will do everything he can to fix the issue. They have multiple photos for TruViews and he can fix a cropping error rather quickly, so that's on the seller for not bothering to reach out.

To say they take "poor" photographs because of 1/1000th of a percentage of the photos they have taken is just not accurate and you do come across as someone with an ax to grind against them
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Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2018  07:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How is there a minuscule amount of mistakes when I had no trouble in finding a coin with not one bad image but 2?
1/1000th of a percentage of photos taken (your figure) is 1 in 100,000, so to have 2 photos with 2 different faults on the same coin is 1 in 10 billion! PCGS has only slabbed 30 million coins so obviously your hyperbole was in overdrive. And I wish that there quality control was even a hundredth of that so dud images were only 1 in a thousand (I don't expect perfection but I do expect high standards).
That obverse IS blurry, that reverse WAS poorly cropped. As for sending off an email to Phil...shouldn't be necessary if their quality control was as high as their slabbing fees. They need to get organised and employ some quality control staff to eyeball every image that is sent out. Doesn't need to cost much if they have a couple of juniors do it (could even outsource eyeballing images to a low cost nation just like a call centre).
As for a minuscule amount of mistakes, I find them nearly everyday because I look at a few thousand images (that is PCGS slabs) every month and I usually purchased a couple of slabs each week. I love picking up coins for 10-20% of their true value because their graders cannot identify varieties and mintmarks.
And yes you could say I have an axe to grind if I keep finding such mistakes in what is supposed to be a premium product.
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jdmern's Avatar
United States
1949 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2018  07:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And yes you could say I have an axe to grind if I keep finding such mistakes in what is supposed to be a premium product.


Occasionally, human beings make errors. 'Premium' human beings make errors. There is plenty to justifiably critique with PCGS. Their photo service, however, does not fall into that category.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2018  08:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I feel quite confident that I can grade coins accurately enough for my own needs, sufficient enough to avoid having to buy slabbed coins.

I am very often tempted to give an on screen grading opinion for the benefit of others.
Nevertheless, a third party grader has a very distinct advantage that I don't. They get to examine the 'raw' coin in hand, with a 10x loupe.
I don't.

Therefore, my grading opinion is just that.
Another opinion.
And occasionally, I am proven wrong.

Also, same applies to Third Party Graders.
Nevertheless, I will occasionally disagree quite strongly with the slab grade, and I will say so, giving my reasons.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We all need to grade accurately for our own needs. That is why grading threads are so essential here in the CCF.
Edited by sel_69l
06/05/2018 08:16 am
Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2018  04:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
jdmern, their photos are mostly top notch and they have have a great photographer. Only problem is they have lousy quality control over the photos they release. Yes a coin can be difficult to photograph so even their photographer will have a good number of images that are sub par. That is where their quality control sucks as somebody should check that each coin has a choice problem free image for both sides before the coin is slabbed. An assistant, a junior, an intern, whatever; but somebody must eyeball those images.
Then somebody must eyeball each slab to ensure the content matches the label. Ideally that somebody must be experienced enough to quickly spot if the grading should be queried because I know from experience that I can have a dozen coins in the same grade for the same denomination and year yet be pleased with some but disappointed with others; so much so that some slabbed coins look inferior in every way (lustre, strike, bagging, eye appeal) to others that graded a full point below. That matters when that point is over a thousand dollars in difference.
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2018  08:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Only problem is they have lousy quality control over the photos they release.


No they don't, you just wish they did to keep trying to bash them

As I've said before I seriously doubt your error finding rate is the 100 percent you think it is. The fact that you can't understand that a small of percentage of anything any company does will have a mistake or a quality issue says all I need to know about your motives. Even the space shuttles had issues and nothing on earth has ever had more brain power or resources used in quality control. Nothing humans do will ever be perfect and you finding a handful of pictures doen't mean their pictures are bad or that they have bad quality control on the pictures.

I already told you how to get the pictures fixed and how easy it was and you went on a rant about how you shouldn't have to just taking a completely unreasonable position.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2018  4:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Where did your 100% error finding rate come from? Not a figure I ever quoted. I did say 10% have problems (either with the image, the label or the grade) and that is not an exaggeration as I can list dozens of slabs I own that have those issues or list hundreds that I have seen. I spot their screw ups nearly every day.
Don't believe? Check out slab 84042295 in ebay item 372316918851 with a BIN of 174.99, spotted that one 8 hours ago. They stuffed up the description as it is a DOT BELOW and worth perhaps $5. I know it is a dot below because it is CBL and all CBLs are dot below, something their "expert graders" obviously have not bothered to learn. So some sucker will buy the slab and not the coin and be down $170. I can post multiple examples of sold coins where PCGS got the description wrong and the buyer will be down hundreds of dollars to tens of thousands of dollars. Please don't insult us by claiming PCGS guarantee will fix those losses as I know of many cases where the victims have waited over a year for a resolution as the buck is passed around for responsibility.
Clearly (some) Americans have low expectations for quality control and think that the customer should have to waste their time contacting PCGS to fix their screw ups. When customers buy a premium expensive (huge mark up to cost at that) product do you really think that it is a completely unreasonable position for them to expect things to be done right the first time?
Clearly some posters are shills for PCGS and defend them against any evidence that they regularly make mistakes. Those mistakes cost customers a lot of money as shipping coins internationally is expensive and take time (often over a month for the return trip) with the risk the coin may go missing in transit (once had a gold coin of the highest rarity being unique take about 4 months to be located and delivered from your crappy postal system to Australia).
Edited by nealeffendi
06/06/2018 4:33 pm
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