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I Am Submitting Weights Of A Clad Layer Of A Dime, Quarter And A Half

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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 06/04/2018  2:07 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Most missing clad errors are the result of an insecure bond of the clad layer(s). The weight of the coin in question is an important piece of data to know in making the attribution. I have calculated the weights of single clad layers which would be helpful in understanding the weight such a coin should show. The exception is that a coin which is missing a clad layer because of a rolling error in the bonding mill which leaves only one clad layer on the coin instead of two. Such a coin will be normal weight and thickness.

I would welcome any comments or questions. I hope this might be helpful information.


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coop's Avatar
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 Posted 06/04/2018  3:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is that per side or both together? While one cladding edge look like they are not the same thickness, I feel it is the cutting of the blanks that move one sides metal across the edge a little. (not that one side is thicker than the other side for the cladding)
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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 06/04/2018  3:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is that per side or both together? While one cladding edge look like they are not the same thickness, I feel it is the cutting of the blanks that move one sides metal across the edge a little. (not that one side is thicker than the other side for the cladding)


The weight I give is one side. If a coin is suspected to be missing clad on both sides, this number would need to be doubled. I think you are correct that the process of cutting makes the 2 clad sides look uneven. I do give the tolerance, which does not factor in the tolerance of the % metal differences in the alloy. I give only the tolerance due to the thickness of the clad strip.
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Crazyb0's Avatar
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 Posted 06/04/2018  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coop, on clad coins I think it is the movement of pressure in a downward motion on a sedentary object that forces the metal in a direction (my mind says up)against the collar. This gives the varied degrees of "thickness" of the layers, it is a motion of metal movement in the pressing. Just My guess after seeing what presses actually do to a piece of metal....i.e. the hammer die in motion hits a non moving planchet/anvil die.
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coop's Avatar
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 Posted 06/04/2018  3:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you look at a blank, you will see the top is rounded from the cut, the bottom is square edged and sharp to the touch.

If your theory was correct, then all the edges would be the same on the same run. If my theory is correct, then they would be random. But you would have to match the exact die pair to know for sure. (I know I think too deep sometimes.....)
Edited by coop
06/04/2018 3:27 pm
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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 06/05/2018  03:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have decided to revise my weights to include tolerance for the ratios of metals in the alloy.


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BStrauss3's Avatar
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 Posted 06/05/2018  07:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Although interesting, your math is suspect. How do you have a result with two more digits of uncertainty than the reported value?

In fact, show your work - would love to know how you came up with this.
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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 06/05/2018  09:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Although interesting, your math is suspect. How do you have a result with two more digits of uncertainty than the reported value?


The simple answer is that I did not try to round off consistently (sorry).


Quote:
In fact, show your work - would love to know how you came up with this.


I can show my work - but just from my notes, so may not be intelligible to someone looking at it.

The first bit of data I needed was the thickness of the clad layers along with the tolerances. I found this in the patent:
United States Patent Office 3,466,157
Patented Sept. 9, 1969
COMPOSITE METAL CONTAINING COPPER FOR CONAGE PURPOSES
Philip B. Neisser, Alexandria, Va., and Morris V. Boley, Bethesda, Md., assignors to the United States of America
as represented by the Department of the Treasury Filed Oct. 22, 1965, Ser. No. 502,738 Int, C. B23p 3/20
U.S. C, 29-199 13 Claims
Filed Oct. 22, 1965

This was also my source of information for the composition of the clad layers and the tolerances of the ratios of the metals in the alloys.

I found that the cupro-nickle clad dime and quarter and the silver clad half were included. However, the cupro- nickel clad half was not included, so I made the assumption that the thickness would be the same as for the silver clad half and the composition would be the same as the dime and quarter cupro-nickel clad.

This information pertains to the composite strip out of which blanks are punched. When transposed in terms of weight, I assumed that information would carry over to the minted coins. The thickness of the composite strip is not as thick as the minted coins because those coins have been through the upsetting mill which created a rim thicker than the composite strip.

The weights of the elements come from the densities of those elements from the Periodic Table in g/cubic mm.

So here are some representative notes which I kept as I was doing the calculations:

Quote:
The thicknesses of the elements of the composite strip out of which blanks are punched:
Dime clad layer (75% +/- 2.5% Cu and 25% +/- 2.5% Ni) = 180.34 µm (+/-25.4 µm)
Dime Copper Core (pure copper) = 688.34 µm (+/- 25.4 µm)
Total weight, one clad layer Dime = 0.5433 g
Diameter = 17.91 mm (17910 µm) Area = 251.80 mm² Vol = 45.41 mm³
Clad layer weight = ~0 .4250 g (Calculated by deduction)
Clad layer weight = .40619g (

Quarter
The thicknesses of the elements of the composite strip out of which blanks are punched:
Quarter clad layer (75% +/- 2.5% Cu 25% +/- 2.5% Ni) = 231.14 µm (+/- 25.4 µm)
Quarter Copper Core (pure copper) = 916.94 µm (+/- 25.4 µm)
Quarter total thickness: 1.75mm reeded (or milled) edge. (I think the reason this dimension is not quite as thick as the coin is after minting is that the blanks have not yet been cut or passed through the upsetting mill.)
Diameter = 24.26 mm (24260 µm) Area = 462.01 mm² Vol = 106.79 mm³
(75% +/- 2.5% Cu and 25% +/- 2.5% Ni) = .00936 g / 1mm³
Clad layer weight = 0.9552 g


Half
Kennedy half dollar coins dated 1965-1969 contain 40% silver
Half clad layer (80% +/- 0.6% Ag and 20% +/- 0.6% Cu)
Thickness = .254 mm +/- 0.0254 mm (254µm) per side +/- .0508 mm (50.8 µm)
Half Copper Core (21.5 +/- 0.6% Ag and 78.5 +/- 0.6% Cu)
Thickness = 1.1684 mm (1168.4 µm) +/- 0.0508 mm (50.8 µm)
Clad = (8x10.5)+(2x8.96)/10 = 10.192 g/cm³ 0.010192 g/mm³
Half Diameter = 30.61 mm
Area = 735.52 mm² Vol Clad Layer = 186.82 mm³
Weight Clad layer = 1.904 g


Kennedy half dollar coins dated 1970 to date
(Extrapolated from data for a Silver Clad Half)
Half clad layer (75% +/- 2.5% Cu 25% +/- 2.5% Ni)
Thickness = .254 mm +/- 0.0254 mm (254µm) per side +/- .0508 mm (50.8 µm)
Half Copper Core (21.5 +/- 0.6% Ag and 78.5 +/- 0.6% Cu)
Thickness = 1.1684 mm (1168.4 µm) +/- 0.0508 mm (50.8 µm)
Diameter = 30.6 mm Area = 735.04 mm² Vol = 186.70 mm³
Clad layer weight = 1.670 g


Here are my tolerance calculations. I do not know whether my notes are adequate to follow along or not - (!!)


Quote:
Tolerance Calculations
Dime clad layer (75% +/- 2.5% Cu and 25% +/- 2.5% Ni) = 180.34 µm (+/-25.4 µm)
Area = 251.80 mm² x 0.0254mm = volume of tolerance = 6.39572mm³
0.008945g/mm³ 75%Cu and 25%Ni Weight of tolerance = +/- .05721 g
******************
Quarter Area = 462.01 mm² x 0.0254mm = volume of tolerance = 11.73505 mm³
Weight of Tolerance = 0.10497 g
*********************
Silver Half Single Clad layer Area = 735.52 mm²
Tolerance = +/- .0508 mm Volume tolerance = 37.36442 mm³ x 0.010192 g/mm³
0.38082 g
Half 1970 after
Area = 735.04 mm² x .0508 mm = 37.3400 mm³ x .00936 g / 1mm³
.34950 g tolerance

Metal Ratios
Dime volume of tolerance = 6.39572mm³ add 0.00959 g
Quarter volume of tolerance = 11.73505 mm³ add 0.01760 g
Silver Half Volume tolerance = 37.36442 mm³ add 0.00924 g
Half Volume of tolerance = 37.3400 mm³ add 0.05601 g

0.06 g/mm³ x 0.025 = .0015 g/mm³

Ag Cu
10.5-8.96 = 1.54 g x .006 = 0.00924 g


I would welcome any guidance/corrections to my math, methods, or assumptions!



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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 06/05/2018  12:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I get figures slightly less than Pete but I could accept his figures. I used a different method and made one assumption.

According to the Mint the overall percentage of nickel in the clad coinage is 8.33% https://www.usmint.gov/learn/coin-a...ecifications

So for a dime at spec weight of 2.27 grams there would be 0.189 grams of nickel. (2.27 * .0833)

Assuming the two clad layers are the same thickness that would mean one layer would contains .0945 grams of nickel. (0.189/2)

The nickel makes up 25% of the weight of the clad layer so the weight of one dime clad layer would be .378 grams (.0945 * 4)

Using the same method the clad quarter layer would be 0.944 grams
CuNi clad half layer would be 1.89 grams

The weight of a silver clad half layer would take more calculations than I am interested in doing at the moment but since Pete's figures and mine are pretty much in agreement I will accept his on the silver clad half.
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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 06/05/2018  1:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for your comments Conder101. I found working on this most interesting. I was especially interested in the tolerances for the ratio of metals in these alloys. I decided to include them in my calculations and combine them with the tolerances related to the thickness.

I may need to go back and revise my numbers to 2 decimals, since any more than that seems to me to be basically irrelevant.
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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 06/06/2018  11:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okay - I hope this is my last revision. Appreciate the comments here made.

I noticed that Conder101's numbers came within the tolerances for my numbers.


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Errers and Varietys's Avatar
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 Posted 06/06/2018  11:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting and informative thread. Thank you for sharing!
Errers and Varietys.
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