1863 Seated Dollar Grade

I would give it a short soak in acetone and there is a good chance that will take care of it. Assuming it is genuine, and I don't see a reason to believe it is not, that's a high value coin in MS (which it appears to be, perhaps high MS). TPG certification is pretty much a must. Comparing the haze to an Ike dollar is not a good comparison. Note: This might be a proof, perhaps others that are more knowledgeable can comment on that.

It is worth noting that there are 3 vertical bag marks/shallow scratches next to her wrist, below the cap. They do not show up well straight on, but are noticeable when angling the coin.

Almost looks like an improperly stored and handled proof coin to me, too!

Here is where you can determine whether or not if it's a proof: http://www.seateddollarvarieties.com/1863.shtml It sounds like you have it inhand. If correct, it will be easier for you to attribute and determine if it is a proof or not. If it is indeed a proof, then it appears to be an impaired proof as I see slight rub on the high points on the obverse. You would need to check those high points for luster breaks inhand. The haze could be natural, it happens even on mint state coins of that age.

My main question is whether a proof or a business strike, it's still a very expensive coin. How do you come to find it and why isn't it in a TPG slab?

Looks like an impaired proof to me as well, I'd say PR58 due to slight hairlines and other evidence of handling.

There is a persistent rumor that in the later 19th c. the Mint or Treasury used to have someone occasionally polish the unsold Proof coins to remove tarnish and dirt. Whether that's got any basis in fact, I don't know.

@MikeF Thanks for the link. I was a bit confused at first, but I think I see what you are getting at. I believe that mine meets the OC-P2 criteria. I've attached pictures to see if you concur.

OC - "1" seems to align with appropriate line of the shield. Date seems to be aligned.


P2 - Lines continue to 5th shield line


What you refer to as luster-breaks is interesting to me. I've seen this type of thing a number of times on various coins, and it generally occurs on the obverse at the high points (which of course is where you would expect your first signs of wear). I find it difficult to differentiate wear vs discoloration on these points. Mine definitely exhibits spots/discoloration/wear at the high points (discernible only on the obverse to me), but it is not clear to me how to classify this. Luster breaks would seem like an appropriate description.

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As for your question concerning "why is this coin not slabbed", that opens up a whole can of worms for me. It is an extremely interesting question, as I have very little experience with higher grade coins (except, some modern stuff and of course Morgan dollars - relatively speaking). My answer/conjecture is relatively long-winded, but here it goes.

About 10 years ago I won a 1799 Draped Bust dollar coin on ebay for about $1200 (lets say VF 35 until NGC tells me otherwise - frustratingly in Quality Control for the last 3 days). That coin has always been my pride and joy, far more valuable than anything else. Recently, I decided to get it graded, figuring that any quality coins should be slabbed (even though I don't really like slabs because they isolate you from the coin as much as they isolate the coin from the world). The next week I went to the Baltimore coin show, and literally the first "booth" I visited had four raw Draped Bust Dollars, which made me think, "what the heck do I know?", and "I guess my coin isn't that special". As I walked the aisles, dumbfounded by the quality and quantity of coins, I was amazed at how many raw coins were on display, with many above $5K. I started to sense that the slabs were really a crutch for us novices, and that the veterans of the trade really didn't need to rely on them. They might be helpful for a sale, or for some customers, but they were comfortable without them, because they had lived without them for many years. That was my sense anyway.

So, that is just background to answer your question. When I walked into the auction house this weekend, it was a run-down red barn. I opened the door, and a labrador retriever came up and barked at me and then went about his business. There were 500 coins lined up on tables in consecutive lot order, with the higher value ones at a special table further back where the auctioneer/owner was watching managing these coins. There were many quality coins IMO, but unfortunately at least half were obviously cleaned. Almost none of the coins were slabbed. It is a family run business who has been operating for 40 years, where the owner is the auctioner, and his grand-daughter was recording results on a CRT computer that I couldn't even remember existing. The seats were practically falling apart. Midway through, the grand-daughter interrupted the auction to tell a joke. "What do you call a line of rabbits walking backward in a line? ... a receding hare line)." When I went to check out, the receipt was printed on an old OKIDATA line printer. When I wanted to write a check, the wife went up and interrupted the auction to ask the auctioneer how he wanted to handle it. We "shouted" back and forth for a bit to settle up, while everybody else waited. So, if its not clear, it was totally old-school. I have to guess that he and his clientele fall in to this old-school category. It was actually really refreshing and enjoyable. It made me nervous to bid on coins without a second opinion (i.e. TPG slab), but it was fun, if not exhilerating. It really added to the experience.

So, I guess my short answer is that some of us are operating in the 21st century, and some of us aren't. Some need a crutch, and some don't. I'm sure you are familiar with the mentality "this is how we've always done it". Maybe not the way everybody would do it, but totally legit.

Bottom line is if you are happy with it then everything else doesn't really matter. ( I didn't realize you already owned the coin.)

I know I'd be tickled to death to own it! Congrats on a nice pick up!

Understood and makes total sense. And thanks for the enjoyable story!! I'm currently putting together a date set of original Seated dollars. This set is no easy task as I'm sure you can imagine!
It's impossible to put a collection like this together by purchasing from local dealers or local coin auctions. I have to buy everything online from auction companies so I have to make decisions based on pictures only.
For me the only choice is to buy graded coins from the major auction houses that look original or have CAC approval. I'm about half way through after 2 years with most of my them in AU. I documented my progress on this site here if you want to check my progress: http://goccf.com/t/287788

When I made that comment I didn't realize you purchased the coin on-site.