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Liberty 1912-S Mintage And Value

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KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2008  6:01 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Randomly, I just ran across the mintage for the Liberty 1912-S nickel. Given the mintage is only 238K, I'm rather surprised how relatively inexpensive these are (PCGS VF30 sold recently on Heritage for $546)

Is demand for this coin that low--or is it simply eclipsed by the unobtainable 1913?
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vermontensium's Avatar
United States
16677 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2008  6:03 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've got a VG10 example. With the 16-D at 264,000, makes you wonder. Lower demand than other keys I think.
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SpringCypress's Avatar
United States
666 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2008  6:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SpringCypress to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My personal opinion is that the 16-D dime, 1877 cent, as well as the majority of the Lincoln and Morgan keys are crazy expensive compared to their mintages. Especially when compared to keys in some of the other sets.

Just as a for instance... take the 95-O dime. I'm willing to bet that from a survivability standpoint its more scarce than the 16D. You can usually find 2 or 3 auctions running for the 16D for every one you find of the 95-O. And yet the 16D will cost you about 3x as much in the lower grades and 2x as much in the higher grades.

Or take the 1915 Barber Half. With a mintage of 138k you can pick up an uncirculated example for about the same price as a VG 16D.

I suppose I can understand the Morgans as with the numerous melts it would be hard to put an actual figure on mintages vs survivability. I'm sure its because there are tons of lincoln and mercury collectors vs some of the other sets, but still... I'd be hard pressed to slap down the money to buy an EF 16D when I could pick up a twenty year date run (1888-1907) of quarter eagles in the same condition for less money. And only 1 of those has a mintage more than the 16-D, some have mintages of under 10k.
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
187702 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2008  7:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it says a lot about the popularity of one coin series over another.
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vermontensium's Avatar
United States
16677 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2008  7:30 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Exactly jbuck, I own a VF 1885 Seated Half - Mintage: 5,200 Bus. strikes! Now why isn't that coin with 258,800 less mintage over the 16-D, off the hook on it's price. On a percentage basis, this coin would be worth tons more than any VF 16-D. It's definitely popularity of issue. You can't compare the popularity of the Mercury dime series and the Seated Half series. It's that simple I believe.
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SpringCypress's Avatar
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666 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2008  8:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SpringCypress to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So why is it that certain series capture interest and others don't?

I'm sure eye appeal has something to do with it, but at the same time as collectors when we start a series don't we take into account the ability to complete a set?

Just as a for instance, I've held off on starting a mercury set for the simple reason of the 16D. (I had a set (minus the 16D) when I was younger, but sold it because at the time I couldn't afford to complete it.)

Is it really collectors that are driving the price of these super keys up, or is it investors? (I draw the distinction between investors and collectors as being investors are those that aren't interested in the hobby, but merely in potential gain, or downside hedging.)
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vermontensium's Avatar
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 Posted 08/02/2008  8:41 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Go to ebay, go to Seated half dollars. Type in 1885 in search. Then type 1916-D in Mercury dimes see what you get. Seems like for every 1 1885 SLH, you probably have 50 16-D Mercs! It's amazing.
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halfabustisbetter's Avatar
United States
1984 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2008  9:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add halfabustisbetter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree springcypress, it seems that certain collectibles become commoditized. Elements of supply/demand combined with market psychology.
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SpringCypress's Avatar
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666 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2008  11:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SpringCypress to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If anything it makes me wonder about the logic of buying these super keys as investment pieces as I think the rationale behind the run up in prices is flawed. Over the last couple of years it seems like more coins are becoming "investment" pieces... such as the 1921 dimes... but then again I'm wondering what the underlying reason is for these run ups.

Why does a 21D now run $125 in VG? It has a mintage of just over a million, if you take a dime that's 6 years older from San Francisco that has a mintage of under a million you can pick up 10 for the same money in the same grade. Are there REALLY that many more Mercury collectors than Barber collectors? And if there are, why are there more? Is it because this hobby is comprised mostly of 70ish year old collectors who remember when the coin was in circulation? I don't buy it. Judging by the average age of those that have posted their pics here, and by the age of collectors I see in stores I think the average collector is well under 70. So to me it can't be a fondness sort of thing.
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bibd's Avatar
Canada
838 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2008  06:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bibd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lots of very correct analysis so far, IMO. Just to add my few cents worth - the 1912S Liberty nickel (like the 1909S Indian head) get no respect partly because its series has only two mintmarked coins, and they are terminal dates. Personally, I hate having a 'hole' in the middle of a consecutive run of dates more than missing a more obscure piece at the end of a series. It's a matter of aesthetics.

To put it another way, the 1912S l.n. and 1909S i.h. approximate the notion of 'varieties' in some people's minds. There is a germ of that feeling in me, although I'd love to have either one!
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mycrob's Avatar
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2602 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2008  2:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mycrob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Does anyone know about survivability of the 16D Merc dime versus the 12S Liberty nickel?

In my opinion, I would think that the 16D has survived less due to potential silver melting through the years, so that could play a role in its much higher value than 12S V nickel. Nickel melting either doesn't occur much or it occurs at very low levels.
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biokemist6's Avatar
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12437 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2008  2:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Does anyone know about survivability of the 16D Merc dime versus the 12S Liberty nickel?


Not really sure but I can offer this little tidbit in regards to graded populations- the 1916-D Merc has a total PCGS/NGC population of 5134 and the 1912-S Liberty has a total population of 1666. Granted, this is only PCGS and NGC populations, the numbers of the 16-D are probably a bit skewed by resubmissions, and the 16-D is probably slabbed more because of counterfeiting but it is interesting that the 12-S has only 1/3 as many graded examples as the 16-D.

Even if these numbers are a decent indicator of true rarity, the 16-D will always be a more popular and hence more valuable coin simply because so many more people collect Mercs as opposed to Liberty nickels.
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1sikevo's Avatar
United States
1130 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2008  2:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1sikevo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Personally, I like the V nickels more than the dimes. It's a little bigger and more of the coin can be seen with the naked eye.
I don't have a single dime in my collection yet, but may get the 16-D if the price is right.
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Pennypusher's Avatar
United States
486 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2008  3:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pennypusher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
My personal opinion is that the 16-D dime, 1877 cent, as well as the majority of the Lincoln and Morgan keys are crazy expensive compared to their mintages. Especially when compared to keys in some of the other sets.

Just as a for instance... take the 95-O dime. I'm willing to bet that from a survivability standpoint its more scarce than the 16D. You can usually find 2 or 3 auctions running for the 16D for every one you find of the 95-O. And yet the 16D will cost you about 3x as much in the lower grades and 2x as much in the higher grades.


The reason is because coins like Lincoln cents, Mercury dimes, Indian Head cents etc. are 2 and 3 times more POPULAR then Barbers. It's supply AND DEMAND. -PP
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SpringCypress's Avatar
United States
666 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2008  8:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SpringCypress to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The reason is because coins like Lincoln cents, Mercury dimes, Indian Head cents etc. are 2 and 3 times more POPULAR then Barbers. It's supply AND DEMAND


I hear this a lot, but... is it even true? I know that the 16D is one of the coins that investment groups target, which I would almost suspect has more of an affect on it's demand than collector interest.

My personal opinion here is that the super keys are super keys due to a sort of self fulfilling prophecy. That their value IS tied up by demand but that demand is based upon a false assumption of scarcity.
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okie-colin's Avatar
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1083 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2008  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okie-colin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The demand is not based upon "false assumptions of scarcity", but rather that the 1909-S VDB Lincoln and the 1916-D Merc are necessary dates to completing extremely popular sets. How many of us started colecting as kids with Lincoln or Merc folders and never completed them due to the scarcity of these dates?
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