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France Provence? 13th Century?

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 Posted 01/29/2019  12:28 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Does anyone happens to know this possible Provence coin from France? with 4 besants alround the cross.


France-Provence?--13th-Century?
France-Provence?--13th-Century?

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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 01/30/2019  12:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes this sure looks like medieval French to me. I'm not sure about Provence though. Wouldn't it say PROENCIE or something equivalent?
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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 Posted 01/30/2019  02:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It seems the attribution of this coin is controversial. Some give it to Marsanne in the Drôme/ Dauphine region and others to the Marquisat of Savoy. The links below give the details (in French).

Obverse margin from 7h: MARSACONA or MAR SAGONA
Obverse center: RE / annulet or letter O / FR.
Reverse margin from 1h: LO IMPERATOR

http://www.inumis.com/vso/V00040/it...-a58216.html
https://www.cgbfr.com/dauphine-comt...25062,a.html
http://a.n.r.d.free.fr/page126.htm
Edited by Kushanshah
01/30/2019 02:48 am
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 01/30/2019  10:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks @ks for including the legends. I haven't seen a letter T with this shape before.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 01/30/2019  4:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was also puzzling over that letter, and had given up on Provence.
For anyone who is interested, the third (and most extensive) reference posted by kushanshah translates more or less like this:

Enigma of the Marsacona Coin
This coin is attributed in Boudeau as #1033 under the heading City of Marsanne (Drome department, France).
But it is not in the same style as coins of Dauphine. The legends do not begin with a cross.

(photos)
PROMIS attributed this coin to the city of Marsanne in an article published in 1836 in Revue Numismatique, p. 348
MANTEYER disputed this attribution to Marsanne, and attributed it to Savona, Italy.
Interestingly, Italian numismatists lay no claim to it.
So, what could the legends mean?

MARSACONA
Some have read this as MarsaGona with a G, but on this coin, it is clearly a C. MANTEYER thinks this is a contraction of MARChio (marquisat) de SAGONA of the Marquis of Savona Henry I, who was granted the right to coin by Frederick in 1162
RE/o/FR
MANTEYER thinks this is a contraction for REFoRciatus, the name of a coin (a type of gros/groat). But here it's placed on a denier!
But we could also consider the initals REx FRederic in the name of Frederick I Barbarossa, when he was king (roi) from 1152-55, before becoming emperor

LO IMPERATOR
LO might mean LOthaire III Emperor 1125-1137

There is no way to know for sure. On the other hand, many examples of this coin have been found in the Drome (France), at PALADRU (l'Isere department) and BRANDES (Alpe d'Huez department), supporting that it is from Dauphine.
But it has also been found at Coni, Italy
.

I am far from an expert in medieval coinage of this part of Europe, but I think tghe history of each region better supports the Italian origin of this coin.

As best I can tell, Marsanne was unlikely to been an important enough entity to mint its own money: in the Middle Ages, Marsanne was a possession of the Counts of Valentinois. https://www.provenceweb.fr/e/drome-...sanne.htmdo. Far more likely we would see coins issued in the name of COMES VALENTIN

On the other hand, Savona was an imperial city, linked to the Holy Roman Emperor: After a long struggle against the Saracens, Savona acquired independence in the 11th century, becoming a free municipality allied with the Emperor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savona. And as for Italian numismatists, it appears that Varesi attributes this coin to Savona: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/me...i_savona.htm

As for the location of hoards containing this coin, Savona is only slightly farther from the French locations than is Marsanne.


Edited by tdziemia
01/30/2019 4:48 pm
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 Posted 01/30/2019  5:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Strong work @tdz!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 01/31/2019  01:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the translation! My French is all but none. All I was able to read with certainty in the photos was RE FR. Surprisingly, that was enough. Google deserves the rest of the credit.
Edited by Kushanshah
01/31/2019 02:03 am
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 Posted 01/31/2019  05:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have read this with my mouth open. Amazing work!!
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 Posted 01/31/2019  09:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Though I continue to wonder a bit about the date ...

The link translated from French mentions Frederick I (mid-1100s) due to the central monogram, and emperor Lothair for the exterior legend that appears to be LO IMPERATOR.

The Varesi attribution for the coin posted on forumancient is 13th c.

On this thread http://goccf.com/t/322955&SearchTer...rederick,II, there is a southern Italy coin of emperor Frederick II (1220-1250) with an FR monogram, and a legend RO IMPERATOR. Perhaps this is the correct period for your coin, too (consistent with "13th c.").

Neat coin!
Edited by tdziemia
01/31/2019 09:12 am
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