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 Replies: 35 / Views: 4,007 |
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Valued Member
United States
456 Posts |
There is an ebay dealer I have bought from and would not hesitate to buy from again. This dealer handles a lot of scarce TPG coins. This concerns the "scarcest" one of all. I wish I could cut and paste the link with my IPad, but the coin in question is an NGC certified PF 66 1891-O Liberty Seated dime with a population of 1 which is described as the only branch mint proof Liberty Seated dime certified by NGC or PCGS ( my understanding is that PCGS does not certify branch mint proofs). The listing price: $10,000,000.00. Putting aside the question of how a common date condition rarity can be worth more than an 1804 Dollar, I wonder how in the world there could ever be a non-modern branch mint proof? All dies including proof dies were made in Philadelphia, and all proof dies were kept in Philadelphia. In 1891, the RedBook states that the Philadelphia Mint issued 600 proof dimes. In 1891. It lists no New Orleans proofs. So ... anything being possible, I suppose someone could have stolen the 1891 proof dies after the Philadelphia Mint was done with them, taken them to New Orleans, stamped an "O" on the reverse, surreptitiously minted just one and kept it secret for a long time (unlike the illegally struck 1913 Liberty nickels which didn't stay secret for long). Or maybe someone simply just polished up a regular New Orleans set of dies to secretly strike the single branch mint proof. Or some other equally unlikely scenario. In any such case it would be a forgery. But I suspect this 1891-O dime was not a proof, but simply an incredibly high quality business strike from regular dies. In that case, it shouldn't be called a proof, particularly because New Orleans was never lawfully authorized to issue proof coins. Instead, I believe it should be given an appropriate business strike grade. Call it MS68, 69, 70 or whatever but don't transmogrify it into something it isn't. I hope this dealer gets its $10M for this dime. It would be good for the hobby. If any of you is interested, the price might be negotiable. While this listing both puzzles and amuses me, I don't want to cast any aspersions on the dealer. I am very happy with the PCGS MS64 Liberty Seated dime I purchased from it. I had been looking for that coin for a long time. It is very scarce in mint state, especially above MS62. The price I got actually bought the PCGS price guide price down, and PCGS listed my purchase in the recent sales prices (probably all I'll ever get of my 15 minutes of fame). Am I out of my mind (as usual)? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2023 Posts |
NGC has an article on branch mint proofs, listing a number of examples, and suggesting that they do exist: https://www.NGCcoin.com/news/articl...oof-Coinage/Quote:
On rare occasions, however, Proof coins have been struck at mints other than Philadelphia. These coins are usually struck to recognize a special occasion or event. I have included in this list coins that have been deemed as true Proofs by most researchers.
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For some coins the reasons for their existence is easy to assume, such as the last or first year of issue for the design. It is my guess that some were struck for collectors' friends as well. Regardless of why many of these coins were struck, they are among the most intriguing and ultra rare coins ever created by the US Mint. |
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Valued Member
Canada
314 Posts |
I think I've seen a few other threads about this listing. Very intriguing coin, but I'd be shocked if he gets half that for it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2023 Posts |
Quote:
...I'd be shocked if he gets half that for it. Considering the NGC site says about this one -- "A Gem Proof example was recently offered privately for $150,000" -- even 2% would be a reasonable profit. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7613 Posts |
The right person, the right auction company, either with a good story and a hand full of money,.... along with an exceptional coin.... might be able to convince a TPG that "this is the real deal". Nothing surprises me. Money does funny things to people. Unless documentation exists in Treasury archives, or a newspaper article from the period references a special mint striking for a special occasion, I'm from the old school that says the coin is not what it's claimed to be. If he gets 10m$ for it more power to him. My suspicion is that the 10m$ price tag is probably very negotiable. My only advice to the buyer, no matter what you pay for it, is you better not ever remove that coin from its holder! Edited by westernsky
03/26/2019 01:09 am
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Valued Member
 United States
456 Posts |
Thanks, Alpha,
I will read the NGC article. Your brief quote interests rather than convinces
me, but I want to know more. I guess I find it counterintuitive that someone would go to all that trouble to make one dime. It was the last year of issue and merited special recognition, but why a tiny dime instead of a larger and perhaps more impressive quarter (no N.O. halves that year)?
Many counterintuitive things turn out to be true. I'm looking forward to taking a little trip to the numismatic twilight zone.
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Valued Member
United States
456 Posts |
After reading the NGC article, I am left with the impression that NGC believes that if a branch mint doctors up a circulation strike die enough to produce a coin with deep enough mirrors to look like a proof, then it counts as a proof. This is essentially a restatement of the quacks like a duck philosophy. I guess it comes down to definitional semantics. I'm an old-schooler like Westernsky on this one. I also have my doubts about 19th Century restrikes, the 1913 Liberty nickel, and, for consistency's sake, even the 1804 Dollar (although I'd gladly be a hypocrite and take one, should you have an extra). Two things are very clear though 1). These coins are very valuable. 2). Because of 1), I will never be a member of the branch mint proof ownership club. Club members can call them whatever they want to. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8515 Posts |
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5238 Posts |
According to the ebay listing, the seller has had 33 offers so far. Who is to say what it is worth? Personally there are many more numismatic things I would spend $10 million on if I had such assets and the inclination, but what I like is not what others like. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
I wouldn't even consider buying it since no place in my Albums for it.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:The right person, the right auction company, either with a good story and a hand full of money,.... along with an exceptional coin.... might be able to convince a TPG that "this is the real deal". Nothing surprises me. Money does funny things to people. Again this is NOT how it works at all and you really should stop making these claims |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1267 Posts |
The coin in question certainly appears to be a branch mint proof, and although the mint has no record of it being struck, there is a record from that year of other denominations.
That said, the asking price is absurd, its value is probably closer to the $150k mentioned above.
FWIW, an 1893-cc branch mint proof Morgan with mint documentation (struck to commemerate the closing of the mint) recently sold for $305k.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5825 Posts |
The one and only "legal to own" 1933 Double Eagle only cost $7.6 million.
$10.0 million seems high to me.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9792 Posts |
 way, way overpriced, and the coin is nice, but doesn't have the proof look to me at all, can't see where NGC is calling this a possible branch mint proof, the denticles are not fully struck up (though they might appear better out of the holder). It just doesn't even come close to a proof looking coin in my eyes. For $10 million I could have one heck of a better collection and investment with many or several choice rarities than I would ever have hope of recouping losses on this coin. "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 |
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Valued Member
United States
456 Posts |
I just don't see it either. The surfaces are excellent (buffed up?), but the devices, as opposed to the fields, seem granular. I don't know, there have been so many different kinds of proofs, maybe that is typical of the time. Frankly, I don't think it would be hard to find an MS66 with equivalent eye appeal. I just can't get my head around the idea that anyone would want to go to all that trouble to make just one intentionally proof dime. What was there to commemorate? The mint still had almost two decades left in its run. The end of Seated coinage? Really? Then why not the larger quarter? And why no record or proclamation? People usually make a big deal about commemorating things. When did this coin come to light? Does it have either an oral tradition or any written reference to being a proof? How far back is that history demonstrable if not to original striking? I'd want to know all of this before concluding this is anything other than a circulation strike. Westcoin, you could build a heck of a nicer collection off of the INCOME from 10M. Then, when you were done, you would still have the 10M left and STILL be able to buy the branch mint proof. What a deal!
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Forum Dad
United States
24148 Posts |
I've said it many times here. The seller is just collecting offers. ebay forces the seller to put in a BIN price to use the best offer option. So they put in a ridiculous price on purpose so they can collect offers for a while. It's a very common, effective, and smart seller option. |
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Replies: 35 / Views: 4,007 |
Posted 03/26/2019 12:59 am
