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Latest Government Accountability Office Report Says Keep The $1 Bill

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BadDog's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2019  12:36 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Conventional wisdom says that it's cheaper to have $1 coins than $1 paper currency and several countries have recently followed this logic, but not the US.

Now, the GAO has published a report that disagrees with the conventional wisdom and says it's actually cheaper in the long run (30 years) to keep the greenback
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CoinCollector2012's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2019  12:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinCollector2012 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I definitely diasgree with this. Coins do not wear out as quickly, meaning they can circulate for longer. I also think that they should not make a bill and a coin. Since people are so used to bills, most of the dollar coins are just sitting in vaults at the fed. Waste of money IMO
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chafemasterj's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2019  1:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chafemasterj to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have to agree with CoinCollector for many of the same reasons. Information I don't have that would be useful is how much does it cost to mint a dollar coin vs. the cost of printing a note. If it's a 30 year study I don't see many 30 year old dollar bills. I wonder what the actual math shows. As we know Coins can last 100 years plus easily. A 100 year run for a circulating bill; I don't think so.

Edit information... I saw in the article that the expected lifespan of a circulating bill is ~8 years.

Page 9:21...What?
Check out my counterstamped Lincoln Cent collection:
http://goccf.com/t/303507
Edited by chafemasterj
04/10/2019 1:13 pm
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Alpha2814's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2019  1:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alpha2814 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the article also gives the production costs of dollar notes and coins for their analysis, on page 29: 3.0 cents per note, 14.6 cents per coin.
Edited by Alpha2814
04/10/2019 1:31 pm
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mtuma3's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2019  1:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mtuma3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If they released all the small dollars sitting around, they might generate more interest and usage of them... Just a thought.
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My7070
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BadDog's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2019  2:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If they released all the small dollars sitting around, they might generate more interest and usage of them

Well, the report assumes that there are $4B dollar coins currently in circulation and that the public has $3B, or 75%, of those. IMHO, if $3B hasn't generated enough use, then releasing the other $1B won't all of a sudden get the public to start using the coins.
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GrapeCollects's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2019  2:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
More importantly I can tear, fold, wash and shread a dollar bill and now it's worthless. If you gouge or wash a coin it still spends. You can't rip a coin.
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chafemasterj's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2019  2:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chafemasterj to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well said GrapeCollects.
Check out my counterstamped Lincoln Cent collection:
http://goccf.com/t/303507
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Earle42's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2019  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Read the report and comprehend it. They tell exactly what they did, how they did it, and the results. Get what the report says and let it stick: The report says the sole beneficiary of the system, if switching was cost effective, is the government. And guess what? The report even mentions it would cost you and I more money to make the switch.

Its easy for someone to say metal lasts longer, but there are a lot more considerations to be made such as how many coins are needed to be made to replace a single bill, increased life expectancy of bills (electronic purchases mean bills don't wear like they used to), and one thing this reports says which I appreciate is that the government is the sole benefactor and the people will likely incur more costs. In other words, this time they did the job with an eye to facts and legitimate data instead of politics.

Years ago I downloaded and digested the initial government report about the savings implementing the Presidential dollar coin program (PDCP from here on out) would introduce. I did the math and posted results on this forum for people to help me find if and where I was making errors. Sorry I don't have a link b/c I never thought of bookmarking the multiple threads.

The "savings" from the initial PDCP report were overstated due to several factors the report failed to take into account and/or address.
1. They did not account for inflation and applied the value of the current dollar to the savings after the PDCP ended. When the typical rate of dollar devaluation was applied over the period of years of the PDCP, the value of saved money was quite a bit less that the report claimed.

2. The official PDCP report did not include hard facts that this recent study does include: increased costs of moving metal containing much less value per pound than transporting bills. In other words, its easier to move a million dollars in one dollar bills than it is to move a million one dollar coins - also a lot less expensive:
From the title page "Seven of 10 stakeholders GAO met with said that replacing the $1 note with a $1 coin would result in additional costs. For example, armored carriers told GAO that their transportation costs would increase because coins weigh more than notes."

However, also let it be know this current report did NOT factor the inevitable rise in costs to consumers in their figures.

3. The PDCP report was written without mentioning what this report does: The government is the sole benefactor. The alleged "savings" in the PDCP were stated as being savings in taxpayer dollars. These are the hypothetical numbers put onto paper that do not save taxpayers anything at all. We don't get the money back. We don't ever see the money. And we all know how professional the government is at using a surplus of tax dollars correct?

in other words, the benefit of these programs is not for the citizens, and taxpayers end up paying more in the long run.

From p. 1"These actions could result in a benefit to government but may also entail broader societal costs to banks, retailers, and currency users, among others."

The savings would never be seen by consumers, and instead consumer costs rise from ramifications of businesses paying higher prices to replace a mailing currency with multiple heavy loads of metal. The businesses obviously pass the costs on to the consumers.

If you read how the data was collected on page 2, you will find a scientific method was followed with some common sense guidelines.

Page 5 reviews and explains seniorage is increased b/c people will not circulate coins as much as bills. The reality is that bills get carried in wallets, while coins end up in change jars at home (ask any Canadian how many Loonies and Twoonies they have). Hence more coins needed for each bill. Canada and UK stats are quoted to show they expected they would need to make 8 coins for every 5 bills they replaced or 1.6 coins per bill needed.

Two replacement scenarios were studied (p.8 and 9):
1. Gradual Replacementl: destroy unfit bills and replace with coins
2. Active Replacement: Destroy fit and unfit bills and replace with coins.

Both scenarios assumed (as happened in Canada and the UK) people would not circulate (use) the coins as much and this report actually used a lesser replacement rate of 1.5 coins per dollar to make their study. Remember Canadian and Brit coin to bill replacement figures were 1.6 coins per bill.

The result was:
"We found that the present value of the net loss incurred by the government over 30 years would be about $2.6 billion with gradual replacement and about $611 million with active replacement (see fig. 2).22"
The report then mentions the fact the coins do not circulate as well as bills (called inconvenience in layman's terms) , hence more needing to be produced. This seems to be what they base the losses on since this is the factor cited at this point in the report.

From the footnote on that page: "18-billion $1 coins would be needed to replace the 12-billion $1 notes in circulation in 2017."

Footnote 22 also mentions how, and contrary to the PDCP report, this report applies a varying rate of dollar value - in other words accounting for dollar devaluation - over the years so as to come up with the present figure.

Page 10 says they also included one time set up costs to convert to coins only in the scenarios (if I remember correctly, this was not mentioned in the PDCP report at all - hence reported savings were again higher), increased production costs of higher denomination bills when $1 are gone, and calculated benefits to the government as interest savings on avoided debt b/c of seniorage (cost to make a bill or coin as opposed to its face value).

Page 11 says bill life expectancy has increased, hence less bills need be made yearly = less cost. It also describes a mistake they were making in destroying good bills, hence production costs actually lessened for bills once this was corrected.

Page 12: People are not using as many bills as before - hence longer life - hence not as many need replaced.

Not all is as simple as it seems.

My main problem with all of this, yet one more time, is why people would want this implemented when it costs the consumers more, the majority of consumers (as per this report also states) have shown an overwhelming preference to bills, and the end result - IF this change was beneficial to government (study shows its not) - - is that basically the government just gets more money to waste on unnecessary projects?

Yes! I want the government to have more money to run tests on the average number of chocolate chips implemented per cookie by Ugandan bakeries while I get to pay more for services, entertainment, and items I buy and use (see the list of stakeholders the report mentions)!


BTW - I enjoy and collect the Sac dollars in proof. I have some proof presidential $1.00 coins but don't actively collect them b/c the designs just did not appeal to me. I also have quite a few Loonies and Twoonies. So I am not anti-dollar coin. I am anti-dollar coin only though.

Oops - one more thing. If all of the dollar coins now being held were melted, it would cost each US person .06 cents (according to figures I posted for review on CCF - sorry no bookmark).
So melting them costs me .06. I realize the price of just one gallon of gasoline, and the car needs more than one, can change by more than .06 from week to week (or day to day!).
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Edited by Earle42
04/10/2019 3:23 pm
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2019  3:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is important to note that a big reason for the change or face is that dollar bills are lasting longer. They have gone from having life measured in months to one measured in years. Many years.

The cost to life ratio was the biggest advantage for the dollar coins. This is no longer true.


For what it is worth, the reason dollar bills are lasting longer has nothing to do with improvements in their manufacture (it is the same ole rag) and everything to do with our ever increasing cashless economy!

We just do not use the dollar bills as much as we used to.


With that being said, I am done pushing for the dollar coin. Electronic will win in the end.
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 Posted 04/10/2019  4:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe you make a very valid point - electronic tracking of...oops...spending will become the norm.

But I still see it a ways off from being absolute b/c of implementation in rural areas. It may be shocking to many urban dwellers, but there are still places with no cell phone and no internet access.

But people will adapt. If/when its all electronic, I can see people going back to bartering. This is still done in some of the small towns I have been associated with.

I plan on going to a steam tractor show here in a couple of weeks. I want to find some old tools to restore to new.

Although it may ultimately prove wrong, I find it very difficult to imagine the farmer in bib overalls, when I go to pay him for his old bench vice to say, "Yup...20.00...Will that be Visa, Discover, Paypal?"



How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2019  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am not meaning to say we are going 100% cashless anytime soon, but that as cashless transactions continue to increase the cash is lasting longer and longer before it needs to be replaced.

The economy (the government regulated one) will go cashless eventually, but I doubt most of us will live to see it.
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 Posted 04/10/2019  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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BadDog's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2019  4:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
For what it is worth, the reason dollar bills are lasting longer has nothing to do with improvements in their manufacture (it is the same ole rag) and everything to do with our ever increasing cashless economy!

Maybe, but IMHO this would be an argument for reducing the amount of currency in circulation and not necessarily for how long it lasts once in circulation.

I did think it was interesting that the report indicated that a major reason for the increased longevity of the notes was that the Fed improved their equipment for examining and removing worn out notes.

It turns out that the old examination equipment was pretty limited in its note examination flexibility and if a note wasn't oriented correctly for the examination it was deemed "bad" and destroyed. The report says that MANY good notes were being destroyed because of this. The Fed replaced this old equipment with newer examination equipment that doesn't require a note to be in a particular orientation. The result was that notes were no longer being designated as "bad" simply because of orientation. Significantly fewer notes being destroyed resulted in an overall increase in the useful life of a note.
Edited by BadDog
04/10/2019 4:27 pm
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 Posted 04/10/2019  6:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was in the local Ace Hardware store yesterday - a hardware store, no less - and had to charge a ridiculously small amount. The counter person said no problem, and that less than 5% of their transactions these days are by cash. I was amazed.
Edited by Coinfrog
04/10/2019 6:13 pm
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 Posted 04/11/2019  01:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CelticKnot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I often carry zero cash for weeks at a time. In fact I recently made a 6-day trip to the West Coast with exactly zero dollars in physical money in hand. I usually get $100 in cash out at the airport ATM for a trip in anticipation of cash-only incidentals but ran out of time on this trip... had to scoot to the gate after too long a queue in security. Didn't end up needing one thin dime. Uber, restaurants, Hard Rock Cafe, fish markets, wineries, ferries, coffee shops, etc. all take plastic (as we all know by now, and some of these ONLY take plastic).

However, report and lengthy, valid analysis supporting it aside, I am skeptical that the United States being a holdout makes the rest of the world wrong about switching to 1-unit coins. For every report there is an equal and opposite report. Right? Maybe. As Earle said:

Quote:
Not all is as simple as it seems.

...on either side of the argument. It is SUCH a complicated equation.

I'm with jbuck -- starting to care less and less about killing off the dollar bill. I collect coins and paper money but don't actually use them (much). It's an odd position to be in as a numismatist that collects mostly moderns (and I'm sure the ancient collectors are laughing at this right now).

Also, if the economy ever goes cashless, as jbuck suggests it might, the bartering system will prevail wherever it is...needed...and new forms of untraceable currency will likely emerge and/or people will dig into their PM stashes. Sci-fi movies have taught us this.


Quote:
The counter person said...that less than 5% of their transactions these days are by cash. I was amazed.

No surprise here. I guess it depends on the establishment but I would guess 5%-10% for a typical retail store. I do remember working in retail back in the 90's and escorting the manager of a big name shopping mall store to the cash deposit box with a bulging cash purse after closing many nights. I'd guess the cash drops are MUCH less than they were 25 years ago.

The times, they are a-changing.



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