| Author |
 Replies: 19 / Views: 2,355 |
|
New Member
United States
18 Posts |
I have a problem and need some guidance and real help. I acquired an 1819 Willem I silver 5 cent piece. The coin had very sharp detail and showed no signs of wear on the high places. None at all. From the dealers that looked at the coin, they said it would grade AU or about AU.
The coin had some tarnish and some of that hard black Netherlands "gunk" that seems to stick in the letters and such. I knew it needed cleaning but I did not want to attempt it. I sent the coin to the best conservation lab in the world. it is an all state-of-the-art fcility and they guarantee that the coin will be conserved and will not come back from the grading service as "cleaned - No Grade." The kiss of death for a coin.
This silver 5 cent piece is part of the set of coins commissioned by Willem I of the Netherlands. He was only around 4-5 years and his coins are available and you can put together a complete set. It is one of the few coin series that you can still get the all. It is a very popular and very collectible set.
This particular 5 cent piece is the key to the entire series. There were only 3000 minted. No way to tell how many survived and with such a low number, their use was heavy and most were pretty well worn out. To find one in almost uncirculated condition is almost unheard of.
The coin went through the conservation service and all surface contamination was removed. It was authenticated as genuine. It was then sent to the grading service, It was graded but when they went to slab it, the slabbing machine malfunctioned and the NCGS destroyed the coin.
They have to now buy the coin from me and we are trying to figure out the value of the coin. I have been offered 2000 Euros by a dealer just bringing the unconserved coin in off the street. Another dealer offered me 1800 Euros in the uncleaned/conserved state. The second dealer I know pretty well and he said he would mark it up quite a bit as it is so rare and is the key date for the series and is in such good shape. All he has to do is hold on to it until word gets out that he has one for sale.
I contacted several large auction houses In Europe and the UK dealing with rare European coins. They both said that this coin in any collectible condition has not been on the market for at least 5 years. I guess with such a low mintage, they got heavy use and most that are still around are "slick as a button" and not really a grade that is collectible. it is also possible that there only a handful left in any decent condition.
So knowing all this, what do you suggest I do to negotiate the amount they should pay me for the coin? I really need some help here.
It would be great if it your response was in a form that I could send in and if you have a professional affiliation that would add to the validity of your estimate, I would really appreciate that.
I'm really in a bind here and need to move on this quick. Their lawyers and insurance people are meeting Monday to present me an offer.
Help!!
Thanks,
Daryl
|
|
|
|
Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
Why not ask the people who have actually seen the coin before conservation? If I were an insurance adjustor, I wouldn't place much weight on the opinion of someone who hasn't even seen the coin. This is why no professional will give an appraisal price on a bunch of coins lost, stolen, burned up, etc.
|
|
New Member
 United States
18 Posts |
I have asked the people who have seen the coin before preservation. Both said it should grade AU or about AU. They also said that the unconserved, "off the street - walk in the shop" price would be close to 2000 Euro. So I do have what I consider the "as is" wholesale price. The price they would put on it in the shop, they wouldn't say. Price of a close grade in a previous auction, none have come up in over 5 years. Price in an auction now, who knows. I just don't know how to determine if the price they offer me is even in the ballpark. With only 3000 specimens ever produced, how should it compare to the key dates of some of the modern US sets? Coin collecting for sets like Willem I nickels is very strong as the whole set can be obtained. 1909-S V.D.B. ONE CENT Mintage: Circulation strikes: 484,000 1916-D - Mercury dimeMintage: Circulation strikes 264,000 1921 - Peace Dollar Mintage: Circulation strikes 1,006,473 1928 - Peace Dollar Mintage: Circulation strikes: 360,649 So I have done what I can but still have no clue as to how to react to their offer that should come Monday. Thanks for the help. I really need it this time. Daryl |
|
Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
Sorry to hear the bad news - I'm suprised that NCGS made such stuff-ups.
Mintage number means almost nothing. You cannot use US mintage figures against other countries mintage. Price is determined none more than supply versus demand, not just supply alone. For instance Niue Island strike various coins at a mintage of under 100 but these are rarely valuable as there aren't much demand.
I guess you have to make a fuss out of this as they were the ones that made the mistake. Auction houses would have no clue either on how valuable it could be as their data are 5 years older. Imagine some collectors would have paid big bucks as they would have been crazy trying to locate a single coin for that period of time.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1424 Posts |
1st, don't accept their first offer no matter what it is!
2nd, I would demand to see the "damaged" coin in person. It might not be damaged at all, one of their employees might have decided he wanted it more then you do.
|
|
New Member
United States
18 Posts |
I understand what you mean by there being no direct correlation between mintage and value. That is true of all coins both US and European coins. There are just too many different ones during the rule of a King in most European countries to collect. About the only thing collectible in some countries are the gold coins and they are usually the hammered ones. But there are coins from Kings that are highly collected as they weren't around very long and all their coins are country and not regional coins. This coin is one of those. Willem was only around for less than 5 years and his silver denominational coins are very collectible and sought after. I'm in Amsterdam now and it is easy to get a "read" from the dealers and collectors. So this coin is part of a set of real coins minted by a short-lived King and not some obscure strike. They were the circulating currency of the time.
I am not sure what you mean by NCGS making anything up. I don't think I said that and if I implied it, I am sorry. I don't know of anything they are making up.
Thanks again. Keep the help coming. I still need it.
Daryl
|
|
New Member
United States
18 Posts |
The coin is not missing as is still in the grading slab. I talked to the director this afternoon. Something happened during the sealing of the slab and the coin broke in half. We have the problem of coins becoming brittle here no matter what the metal (gold excluded). They told me that no matter what the settlement, they would return the two halves still in the holder. I asked them to return the coin to the conservation department and have them do their best to "glue" it back together and they had no problem with that. They said they understood that the coin, even though it is now worthless, has some value to the person that owned it.
As far as accepting the first offer. You are right on the money. Just like the 2000 Euro they offered me in the coin shop. No way, I want to see some numbers they are basing it on. I have also told NCGS the same thing. I want to know how they got to the figure they present to me. For me to accept it, it has to be logical and make sense. I'm a reasonable person and if it makes sense and I can live with it. I'll be a happy camper.
Thanks!
Daryl
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
I really don't know anything here, but I'll offer an opinion based on other rarities and their arrived value. If any collector item (coin, Navajo rug, Inuit mask, Babylonian codpiece, etc.) is so rare that a similar item hasn't come up to auction in years, they only way to determine value is to auction your item--in the most visible way possible, of course. Otherwise, an appraisal strikes me as an arbitrary opinion. You won't really know unless it's offered for sale to the right collectors. But that's just my opinion too--good luck on your coin.  Update: the coin was destroyed? I did not catch that the first time--my apologies.  Edited by KurtS
09/06/2008 3:35 pm
|
|
New Member
United States
18 Posts |
You are absolutely correct. I believe that the dealers who wanted to buy the coin were going to do just that. Place it in a well-advertised auction, with a reserve, and see what happened.
That's my problem as well as NCGS's. There is nothing out there to tie a value to. I'm in the dark and looking for some insight as to how to interpret their offer.
Thanks for your opinion. It helps.
Daryl
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
2703 Posts |
Based on the dealer's offers, I think they will want to offer you 2000 euros.
So I would start by asking for 2x wholesale = 4000 euros.
If they really fuss, then fall back to 3500 euros.
If you have to, (only if you have to)
you can offer split the difference and settle at 3000 euros.
|
|
Moderator
Australia
16834 Posts |
Quote:
... They both said that this coin in any collectible condition has not been on the market for at least 5 years... Maybe they should have looked harder. There are two Dutch 5 cents 1819 on CoinArchives, both from auctions held in 2006: This one in VF which sold for 750 euros and this one in "EF-Unc" which sold for 1650 euros. That latter one is the closest you'll get to an indication of value for your coin. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
|
|
New Member
United States
18 Posts |
Guess you have to search for the right King. They probably searched for William of Orange and then William I as indicated by the link. Right dates, wrong King. The King of the Netherlands was Willem I, Frederik of the Netherlands (also Duke of Luxemburg) during this time. I think you are right about the value although the second one has some pitting issues.
Thanks,
Daryl
|
|
Valued Member
Australia
60 Posts |
Who the **** is NCGS ? please lets start with that.
Ask to see the coin. Either way, I agree at least double. I would ask for 4000 or more
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Poland
3201 Posts |
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1231 Posts |
First I think the problem started with sending it to NCGS. Never head of them and I sure wouldn't call them "the best conservation lab in the world"
You probably should have sent it to NCS which is part of NGC.
But now that is all in the past for your coin. I think it will be hard to determine current value as none have been up for auction in 5 years. Yuor best bet is to find an auction house that deals with this type of coinage and get them to give an estimate of value based on the details of the coin. You and NCGS would have to be willing to send the coin for them to view in hand or slab. And they would have to value it on if it was not broken.
*Edited to add*
Good luck with it.
Edited by onejinx
09/06/2008 08:01 am
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
819 Posts |
I guess how much you should accept depends on what you're after here.
How much money would it take to replace the coin they damaged? I would accept that amount, or better yet, the same coin in the condition you presented it to them. I know, an extremely low mintage, with a very high grade. This is why I say take as much as it would cost you to replace the coin.
|
| |
Replies: 19 / Views: 2,355 |
Posted 09/05/2008 11:09 pm
