Curious As To The Actual Mechanics Of This - 115 2019-S Rp American Silver Eagle / ASE 'S For Sale - Page 2

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BadDog Pillar of the Community United States 1375 Posts	Posted 11/23/2019 8:09 pm Quote: Eh they served the public just fine. As usual, we'll have to disagree. Apparently, your concept of serving the American public and my concept of serving the American public vastly differ. I don't collect ASEs and had no interest in this coin, but somehow I think that there are many collectors out there who don't feel well served by the contrived low mintage of this coin and their inability to obtain one at the issue price. Report this Post to the Staff
basebal21 Bedrock of the Community 13014 Posts	Posted 11/23/2019 9:05 pm Quote: Apparently, your concept of serving the American public and my concept of serving the American public vastly differ. The mints obligation to serve the public is to provide coins for commerce which they have no issues with and to be profitable when it comes to collector items that are issued. As far as what their obligation to collectors should be I would say that issuing a product that everyone wants as shown by a vibrant after market is serving collectors well. It's hardly serving collectors when 90% of what they buy directly from the mint is worth less and often times significantly less within a year because it just wasn't exciting. That then leads to it being oversold as the leftovers are sold at a steep discount to big dealers at the end to clear out inventory that's sat all year which drops prices even further and even leads to somethings being easier and cheaper to just spend than try and sell. Every one had the same fair shot to get the coin, they served the public. Quote: I don't collect ASEs and had no interest in this coin, but somehow I think that there are many collectors out there who don't feel well served by the contrived low mintage of this coin and their inability to obtain one at the issue price Many of which whom wouldn't want it if it was another unlimited mintage snooze fest. Many people are only upset because it's such a hot item and it's only such a hot item because it's so limited. Report this Post to the Staff
BH1964 Bedrock of the Community United States 10982 Posts	Posted 11/23/2019 10:15 pm Quote: With GrapeCollects chart 44% of the entire mintage has been sent to PCGS! How many are at NGC? Looks like raw coins are the least available and mine hasn't even arrived yet. I have no idea where GrapeCollects got those numbers but they are not accurate. The real numbers are linked below. https://www.PCGS.com/coinfacts/coin...ev-pr/807000 ANA #R3154474 Report this Post to the Staff
basebal21 Bedrock of the Community 13014 Posts	Posted 11/23/2019 10:22 pm Quote: I have no idea where GrapeCollects got those numbers but they are not accurate. He posted the numbers for the W one from the pride set. Report this Post to the Staff
BadDog Pillar of the Community United States 1375 Posts	Posted 11/23/2019 10:55 pm Quote: ...and to be profitable when it comes to collector items that are issued. You've been shown to be wrong about this before. Read the authorizing legislation. The Mint is NOT a for profit enterprise. Their mandate is to try and break even, which in reality means they end up turning a small profit to ensure they do not lose money for the Government. If their mandate was to be profitable, then this coin wouldn't have been priced at $65.95. Quote: ...I would say that issuing a product that everyone wants as shown by a vibrant after market is serving collectors well. IMHO this is the way to serve a SMALL portion of collectors and not the American public at large. Quote: Every one had the same fair shot to get the coin, they served the public. Again, IMHO this IS NOT what serving the public means. Quote: It's hardly serving collectors when 90% of what they buy directly from the mint is worth less and often times significantly less within a year because it just wasn't exciting... Again, the Mint sets prices to recover it's cost. It serves the American public by providing product at, or near, cost. What happens in the aftermarket is not within the Mint's mission or purvue. Quote: That then leads to it being oversold as the leftovers are sold at a steep discount to big dealers at the end to clear out inventory that's sat all year which drops prices even further and even leads to somethings being easier and cheaper to just spend than try and sell. Do you have first hand knowledge of this, or is it your opinion? I have not seen this reported either in the press or the Mint's annual reports that this occurs. Report this Post to the Staff
basebal21 Bedrock of the Community 13014 Posts	Posted 11/23/2019 11:14 pm Quote: You've been shown to be wrong about this before. Read the authorizing legislation. The Mint is NOT a for profit enterprise. Their mandate is to try and break even, which in reality means they end up turning a small profit to ensure they do not lose money for the Government. If their mandate was to be profitable, then this coin wouldn't have been priced at $65.95. No I haven't, their obligation is to have a profit not lose money. You self admit they have to turn to profit to make sure they don't lose money on collectors items. Either way by that logic it was priced correctly then so whats the issue? Quote: IMHO this is the way to serve a SMALL portion of collectors and not the American public at large. Now you're contradicting yourself, either they're supposed to just try to break even or they're supposed to suck the bone dry. It can't be both. They serve the American public at large with circulating coins. As I said before the possible extra 20k they could have made sucking the bone dry isn't even one second of the federal budget, it's 100% meaningless. There's no what about the tax payer argument here Quote: Again, IMHO this IS NOT what serving the public means. Giving everyone a fair chance isn't serving the public? Quote: It serves the American public by providing product at, or near, cost. What happens in the aftermarket is not within the Mint's mission or purvue. So when TV network shows sell coins where the cost could never be recovered they're scammers, but if the mint does it it's serving the public? Quote: Do you have first hand knowledge of this, or is it your opinion? I have not seen this reported either in the press or the Mint's annual reports that this occurs. Yes it has been reported multiple times in multiple places such as Coin World. Their overall sales are dealer driven, if you removed the big buyers which get discounts right off the bat mintages would plummet on most things. I don't just say things to say things. https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-c...-at-discount 50+ dollar proof that some big dealers just got for under 30 each. If that's what counts as serving the public at large by overproducing things no one really wants that much no thank you. There's a reason why dealers can offer products under issue price and still make money. Making products that are assured to lose value is not serving the collector well Edited by basebal21 11/23/2019 11:17 pm Report this Post to the Staff
AES Valued Member United States 452 Posts	Posted 11/23/2019 11:36 pm Quote: Every one had the same fair shot to get the coin, they [US Mint] served the public This. Report this Post to the Staff
BadDog Pillar of the Community United States 1375 Posts	Posted 11/24/2019 08:15 am Quote: Yes it has been reported multiple times in multiple places such as Coin World. Did you actually read the article you provided the link to? It says Quote: Under the usual protocol, once sales totals are officially audited, any unsold product in the Mint's inventory is de-trashed — that is, the coins are separated from their packaging, and the coins sent for melting and metal reclamation, and the packaging is shipped to a waste disposal facility for ultimate incineration. So, this was not business as usual for the Mint. It was however prudent in that they were able to sell these coins for more value than would have been obtained than by recycling them for their silver content. Is there something wrong with that? BTW, thanks for the link to the article. I hadn't see it before. Quote: No I haven't, their obligation is to have a profit not lose money. You self admit they have to turn to profit to make sure they don't lose money on collectors items. Again, where is the link that supports your contention that the Mint has a mandate to make a profit? You couldn't provide one before when this was discussed in a different thread, and I'm doubtful you can provide one now. When it comes to the Liberty Coins (what we now call Eagle coins, ASEs and AGEs) here's what the legislation says Quote: (f) The Secretary shall sell the coins minted under subsection (e) to the public at a price equal to the market value of the bullion at the time of sale, plus the cost of minting, marketing, and distributing such coins (including labor, materials, dyes, use of machinery, and overhead expenses). Quote: You self admit they have to turn to profit to make sure they don't lose money on collectors items. Yes, I said that reality dictates that they typically make a SMALL profit in order to comply with authorizing legislation mandating that these programs are cost neutral. Here's the table from the latest annual report showing that sometimes they make a few percent profit (2018 was a SMALL negative, 2017 & 2016 were SMALL positives). It is VERY difficult to predict sales with a 100% accuracy, so it is prudent of the Mint to price their products so as not to lose money which would be technically violating authorizing laws. Quote: So when TV network shows sell coins where the cost could never be recovered they're scammers, but if the mint does it it's serving the public? Now you're comparing the Mint's obligation to recoup their costs to TV scammers (your words, not mine) selling Mint items at far above their cost? It's a ridiculous comparison. Quote: Their overall sales are dealer driven, if you removed the big buyers which get discounts right off the bat mintages would plummet on most things. No denying this. In fact, most legislation authorizes them to do bulk sales at a discount. Here's typical language (in this case from the law authorizing the Christa McAuliffe coin Quote: (b) BULK SALES.—The Secretary shall make bulk sales of the coins issued under this Act at a reasonable discount. but what does this have to do with whether or not the Mint should keep having products with mintages far below the expected demand? At least try and stay on topic for a change. Quote: Giving everyone a fair chance isn't serving the public? IMHO this is a necessary condition but not a sufficient condition to serve the American public. Name one other Government service where fairness by itself would be acceptable. How about your drivers license? Do you just want a fair chance at obtaining one? Or perhaps there's a Government service that you need. Again, is a fair chance of obtaining it the standard that should be applied? Report this Post to the Staff
Foxwoods Man Pillar of the Community United States 4901 Posts	Posted 11/24/2019 11:00 am The 14,000+ number is not for this coin If it doesn't make sense then you are probably looking at the wrong coin. That "W" after reverse proof and the lack of the word "Enhanced" should be a clue. No way over 14,000 have been graded already by one company Here are the correct PCGS POP's on the 2019 S ERP (229 graded) Edited by Foxwoods Man 11/24/2019 11:15 am Report this Post to the Staff
Foxwoods Man Pillar of the Community United States 4901 Posts	Posted 11/24/2019 11:11 am Here's the complete breakdown of the 229 2019 S ERP's graded so far by PCGS...over 200 of the 229 graded were at the Baltimore show Edited by Foxwoods Man 11/24/2019 11:11 am Report this Post to the Staff
Earle42 Bedrock of the Community United States 10038 Posts	Posted 11/24/2019 11:41 am Putting a twist onto this. I am sorry that my references are not backed up, I am sure some homework for those interested will bring it out of the web. Was it last year there was a new mint director? Anyhow, the new mint bigwig I remember hearing from on a video (possibly youtube) said that he was interested in stirring interest in the coin collecting hobby. I believe the W quarters and this 2019-S ASE ERP (excuse me) were results of him saying this. I know I am happy I was able to procure one and would feel left out, and possibly angry if I let my irrational emotions run rampant if I had not. Putting the emotions aside - good and bad - I was glad to see all of this happen for the sake of coin interest. I know I was told from non-collecting contacts who don't even know I collect coins about the exciting new silver dollar the US mint was going to release in very small numbers. I saw firsthand what appeared to be a direct result of the aforementioned bigwig's goals. In this sense the mint in issuing this coin HAS served the public in a good way of making others not aware of numismatics to be exposed to the concept. I do not doubt there are people who have gained an interest in coins b/c of the W .25s and likely there will be because of this ASE. However, as Basebal has said correctly, the RCM has tried to suck all the meat off of the bone and went for the marrow as well! Our Northern Neighbors have become very tired of seeing some sort of new gimmicky design every time the Queen sneezes. If they continue making this same issue every year to the ASE, they will do what the RCM did and make new designs a boring norm. The 2006 ASE was the first RP and it was a hit. It was not until 2011 they did it again and it was a great hit. The came the 2012 - a little more ho hum. Then the 2013 ERP and it was, well, "nice and different, but are we starting something here?" And now an RP ASE is not such a special item anymore." ...so they mix up the MM and make a new low date ASE. If nothing else, for everyone interested it was an exciting ride. I think in this way the public was served well. Variety (but not repetition of the same variety) is the spice of life. My initial thought of them not repeating this for an ASE stands. I don't wish to see them making the full collection of ASEs out of the price ranges of future collectors and those who the Internet's random fingers do not smile kindly upon during the ordering process. As to the mint making a profit...in the long run the more collectors in the hobby, the more they make a profit. I see this as a decent strategy. If they had been crazy enough to try selling this at 1K for each coin, they would have been price gouging and no better than crooks. It obviously costs them less than the original asking price to make this all come together. America was built on giving a quality product for what people considered a bargain price. Here the mint knew what it was doing and overall made a highly valued collectable like the 1995-W. I a few years the emotions of disappointment at not getting one from the mint for cheap will die down, and this coin will likely be seen overall as one of the hunted/goal items for the set. It will add to the fun like all rare coins do. How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2 Report this Post to the Staff
basebal21 Bedrock of the Community 13014 Posts	Posted 11/24/2019 12:15 pm Quote: Did you actually read the article you provided the link to? Is this a serious question? If you had knowledge of the topic you would have known that happens and it wasn't the first time nor will it be the last. I have no problem with them doing that as it makes more sense financially, but it just shows you there is 0 reason to buy 99 percent of things from the mint when you can wait and get it cheaper within a year. Quote: How about your drivers license? Do you just want a fair chance at obtaining one? Or perhaps there's a Government service that you need. Completely irrational comparisons. It's a collector coin not medical service, or ability to work etc. Even trying to compare the two is just asinine. PS there is no right to a drivers license, it is a privilege Edited by basebal21 11/24/2019 12:27 pm Report this Post to the Staff
basebal21 Bedrock of the Community 13014 Posts	Posted 11/24/2019 12:25 pm Quote: If they had been crazy enough to try selling this at 1K for each coin, they would have been price gouging and no better than crooks. It obviously costs them less than the original asking price to make this all come together. America was built on giving a quality product for what people considered a bargain price. Here the mint knew what it was doing and overall made a highly valued collectable like the 1995-W. I a few years the emotions of disappointment at not getting one from the mint for cheap will die down, and this coin will likely be seen overall as one of the hunted/goal items for the set. It will add to the fun like all rare coins do. Exactly. No matter what they do people are going to complain. Everyday I am more and more convinced that complaining is an integral part of collecting . Since people are going to complain no matter what they might as well do things that get people excited and are a winner for those who were able to get one. Anyone who missed out can go on the after market and get one if they want since after-all that's the price it would have been if the mint was sucking the marrow out of the bone too like apparently at least a few people wish they did. You can never please everyone and often times when you do you end up pleasing no one. That 2013 RP is a great example, it's the only RP that you can get below issue price and over 10% of total orders were canceled when people saw the final mintage as they didn't want to pay $70-80 for a coin with over 200k minted. I rip on the mints website as it is fun to make fun of, but the reality is it makes no sense for the mint to spend millions upgrading their capacity when they would only need it a couple times a decade. Overall this new director is doing a fantastic job. Between this, the pride set, and the W quarters he's generated more excitement this year than in several years combined. I hope he keeps doing what he has been and keeps modern collecting exciting again Report this Post to the Staff
Morgans Dad Pillar of the Community United States 5622 Posts	Posted 11/24/2019 12:41 pm baseball, While I do NOT agree with your comments at times, I do believe your comments above to stand true. Being a Coin Collector since 1963 the hobby needed a shot in the arm, While I also do NOT agree with all the hype,I do believe there are different types and kinds of collectors, We are not all after the same things. It is a hobby, not everyone will be pleased, ENJOY.......PS, EARLE, Your comments also reflect plenty of logic, Well stated....... Report this Post to the Staff
basebal21 Bedrock of the Community 13014 Posts	Posted 11/24/2019 12:54 pm Quote: I do believe there are different types and kinds of collectors, We are not all after the same things. This is a blessing to all of us. If we all had the same taste and wanted the exact same things, the overwhelming majority of us would never be able to afford anything Report this Post to the Staff
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Curious As To The Actual Mechanics Of This - 115 2019-S Rp ASE's For Sale