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 Replies: 22 / Views: 3,842 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
612 Posts |
I posted this an hour or so ago in the wrong forum, the new member forum, so I'm re-posting it here. Obviously a coin can have wear and still be considered uncirculated. Bag marks and rim dings and abrasions all can happen in the minting process or as coins get bagged or stored, after all, that's why there are MS grades from 60 to 70. All mint state coins yet with different amounts of wear. If you have a stack of coins, or even a roll of coins for 50 years or so that were never circulated, the high points will over time show slight amounts of wear just from being jostled or even slightly moved over the years. Heck if you had a stack of uncirculated Morgan dollars in your dresser drawer and you opened that drawer everyday to get out a pair of socks, they would show some slight high point wear and yet never have been in circulation. Well that's sort of my question ....... how is that circulated vs uncirculated line drawn? I already had one reply and thank him for that, but would like to hear more and different opinions on this. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8137 Posts |
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Obviously a coin can have wear and still be considered uncirculated. This is not the case at all. A coin cannot grade higher than AU-58 if it has wear. Mint state coins are graded based on their strike, eye appeal, and number of marks on the coin. The bottom line is that any coin with wear cannot be considered uncirculated. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
612 Posts |
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This is not the case at all. A coin cannot grade higher than AU-58 if it has wear. Mint state coins are graded based on their strike, eye appeal, and number of marks on the coin. The bottom line is that any coin with wear cannot be considered uncirculated. But coins that come out of the press should have no wear, yet it's the bag marks, scuffs, abrasions, even gouges and cuts that happen to a coin once it pops out of the press that dictate the grade from MS-60 to MS-70. That's wear on the surface of a coin and that was my question, where is the line drawn between wear from you or me vs wear from or at the mint. All wear apparently is not created equal, and some wear is better than other wear. |
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
There is a distinction made between accumulated damage (bag marks and rim dings etc...) That are acceptable on uncirculated coins, these will lower grade depending on severity. And circulation wear, meaning the design detail and mint lustre of high points has been worn away, precluding an unc grade. There is exception however, as in some circumstances an uncirculated coin with slight rubbing (wear) on high points from improper storage may achieve a low unc grade. Looking at the coin as a whole and applying a grade is very subjective and takes practice, everyone can learn more. Researching technical definitions for grades and what damage will effect a grade from a TPG will get you some of the way there but it is no substitute for experience in my opinion. Edited by mcstone
03/22/2020 12:04 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
612 Posts |
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There is exception however, as in some circumstances an uncirculated coin with slight rubbing (wear) on high points from improper storage may achieve a low unc grade. That's sort of what I meant in my analogy about a stack of coins in your dresser drawer that have never been in circulation yet might show a little high point wear just from the drawer being opened and closed. But with that understanding, how is it determined, that slight rubbing on the high points? |
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Rest in Peace
United States
18456 Posts |
You can't confuse bag marks with wear . You talk about uncirculated Silver dollars in your sock draw , who in their right mind would store them loose with out holders in a draw . As far as the mint goes you will not get any wear on an uncirculated coin from them . only justifiable contact marks . If you think you have an Unc. coin with a smidgen of wear we need to call it AU-58+ . NOT MS-60 .
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10029 Posts |
I may be mistaken, but I think the term "wear" is causing problems here.
Damage done at the mint is not physical friction-caused wear. With "wear" that affects a coin being classified as MS, details of the of the coin have been worn down to cause lack of sharpness in detail. It is this wearing of details where the line is drawn between circolated and uncirculated.
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halveshttps://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
612 Posts |
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who in their right mind would store them loose with out holders in a drawer Whether or not somebody is in their right mind is irrelevant to the question, what is wear? I'm glad to see that you are taking the other side, that makes for a good debate. But without turning this into a debate over semantics rather than about coins, what then is wear. You say bag marks are not wear ....... OK, but if those same marks happen in a sock drawer instead of in a mint bag, then that is wear? I suppose I'm looking for a better explanation. |
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
We can't know the complete history of coins, especially those hundreds of years old. We don't know at the end of the day how damage to coins happened. We can only use our experience to make educated guesses. The use of terms such as wear, bag marks and unc/au etc. Are used to help us communicate go we have interpreted the condition of a coin.
If you can think of something (mark or mint error) that might be displayed on a coin, there is probably a word for it. Use your experience to make good judgements and post your examples here to start a discussion/ get answers. This is how we all learn :)
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5238 Posts |
That's a very good question and I think that some may be missing the point. Damage to silver dollars jostling around a bag from the mint,moving around a bank repeatedly-that is considered bag marks, etc. (which is called accumulated damage) is considered different than the damage once it leaves the bag and goes into a sock drawer or your pocket and gets jostled around there (which is called wear).
Yes, I understand perfectly that this is the theory, but can they always be told apart? That is, heavy damage from being in a bag for a long time vs. damage from being in your pocket for a short time? technically the first is UNC and the second is circulated. However, I am not convinced that they can always be told apart at that level.
This is what I would like clarified. Can heavy bag marks always be told from light wear?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
608 Posts |
The line between AU-58 and MS-60 is so thin that any two individuals may grade a single coin differently.
Until we use A.I. for grading the subjectiveness will come into play.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4085 Posts |
I think that in general, the marks that coins leave when they come into contact with other coins look different than the marks that fingers or jostling around in your pocket do. Bag marks tend to be metallic looking abrasions on a particular part of the coin - and not necessarily the high points. While circulation wear tends to be more evenly distributed across the coin and is focused on the high points of the design.
Are there coins that never circulated that get mis-graded because it looks like they did? Or vice-versa? Sure, nobody knows what's going on in that sock drawer except the socks and their coin and other guests. But in general I think you can tell the difference in MOST cases.
Edited by KenKat
03/22/2020 8:11 pm
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Moderator
 Australia
16806 Posts |
There is a difference in appearance between "bag marks" and "wear", caused by their different methods of creation. Bag marks are caused by single impacts. They look like dints and scratches. Wear is caused by friction, or rubbing. It looks like a loss of lustre and fine detail from the high points of a coin. It does not matter how the damage is obtained, if it "looks like wear" then it is treated like wear. Your hypothetical Morgan dollars will acquire wear, from friction, sliding back and forth in the drawer. This is not unlike the "cabinet friction" seen on old-collection coins, stored in old-fashioned coin cabinets for decades or even centuries. As a result, those Morgan dollars will acquire wear, and will thus at some point no longer be "uncirculated". It works the other way too. If you receive a coin in change, and the shopkeeper giving it to you took it out of a Mint roll and handled it carefully, and you handled it carefully, it would still be "uncirculated" - even though, technically, you obtained it from circulation, so logically it shouldn't be "uncirculated". If it looks uncirculated, then it's classified as uncirculated. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Rest in Peace
United States
18456 Posts |
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it would still be "uncirculated" - even though, technically, you obtained it from circulation, so logically it shouldn't be "uncirculated". If it looks uncirculated, then it's classified as uncirculated.   |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Kind of a state of mind. IF you really want a coin to be uncirculated, just say it is. Unless your selling it, no one can say anything else.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
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Obviously a coin can have wear and still be considered uncirculated. Only from a grading service. Quote:
Bag marks and rim dings and abrasions all can happen in the minting process or as coins get bagged or stored, after all, that's why there are MS grades from 60 to 70. All mint state coins yet with different amounts of wear. Bag marks, dings and scrapes are not wear. They can result in the coin being at some point in the 60 to 70 range but they are still MS/uncirculated. Quote: Heck if you had a stack of uncirculated Morgan dollars in your dresser drawer and you opened that drawer everyday to get out a pair of socks, they would show some slight high point wear and yet never have been in circulation. Yes and that high point wear IS wear even though they have never been in circulation. They would still be "circulated", but a grading service, especially if the are a scarce of rare date would probably still call them MS. (they used to call it "cabinet friction" now they call it "rub".) Quote:
You talk about uncirculated Silver dollars in your sock draw , who in their right mind would store them loose with out holders in a drawer. LOTS of people. Remember all of them were MS at one time but for many many years to most people they were just spending money, a cash stash. Also collectors used to keep their coins in trays in cabinets on little pieces of felt. Pulling the trays out and putting them back in would often cause the coins to slide back and forth, hence the term "cabinet friction". Edited by Conder101
03/23/2020 3:09 pm
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Replies: 22 / Views: 3,842 |
Posted 03/22/2020 11:53 am
