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1821 Zacatecas Mint 8 Reales Genuine Or Counterfeit

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 Posted 07/08/2021  6:52 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add hjian to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I purchased this coin 1821 Zacatecas mint 8 reales recently. The coin is enormous 40.63mm but the weight is only 26.23g. However, SG is correct 10.30g/cm3. My scale has the accuracy of 0.001g.

There are two overlaps at 180 degree apart on the edge. But there is some vertical cuts on part of the edge.

The king punch should be bust4 with 7 fruits in laurea according to the information in the link. Since the coin is much bigger, there are more space between 1812 and letters. "GRATIA" is placed way higher. I can't find a coin from the link matching the placement between the king punch and the legends.

https://leyendomonedasnumismatica.b...i-zacatecas/

Is this coin genuine or type II counterfeit?


1821-Zacatecas-Mint-8-Reales-Genuine-Or-Counterfeit
1821-Zacatecas-Mint-8-Reales-Genuine-Or-Counterfeit
1821-Zacatecas-Mint-8-Reales-Genuine-Or-Counterfeit
1821-Zacatecas-Mint-8-Reales-Genuine-Or-Counterfeit
1821-Zacatecas-Mint-8-Reales-Genuine-Or-Counterfeit
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 Posted 07/09/2021  12:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
hjian I have seen this die type before. In my collection of photographs, I found a coin that uses the identical Portrait of Ferdin VII and it also uses the same incorrect A font. The coin appeared on ebay, but I failed to note who bought it. In the picture it is accompanied by the NGC label # 3860849-005 "- Not Encapsulated - Not Genuine".

I classify it as False but I do not place the coin in a specific category. I believe it does not fit the criteria for a Class II Silver Counterfeit precisely because there was no profit motive that could account for its manufacture as a China export coin. The coins of Ferdin never carried a premium over silver value greater than 4% therefore there was no profit for a forger making them to use the correct alloy. A debased coin of about 800 fine silver makes more sense and that would fit Class 1.

It should be tested with XRF to determine the Gold content and possibly with a Lab level tester looking for the presence of other trace markers like Lead, Cadmium or Iridium. Those trace contaminants would likely determine if the coin is actually a War time Class I coin or a Class IIII Numismatic Forgery.

At this point the only thing that is certain is that it is classified by NGC as "Not Genuine". That is the equivalent of a guarantee that the coin is not original. The words "Not Genuine" are as conclusive as it gets from NGC.

The War years in the branch mints are particularly difficult to classify because there were clearly production issues that resulted in raw silver being struck without final parting of the metals. Silver went directly from mine ingots to the coining floor. Assays are known both under and over standard. Both Royalists and Revolutionaries used Zs dies at times. In my book I only listed those examples that were clearly able to be classified as Class 1 due to a silver content under 800 fine. I own at least 20 examples of the 1821 Zs that I have never finally classified simply due to the cost of the needed XRF tests to be sure of what they are.

At one point in time, during the war, the US mint issued a buy order for banks because tests demonstrated that the US mint could make an 8% profit over face by removing (parting) the gold content from Royalist Zs examples. A hoard that I have followed for several years discovered in Northern Mexico includes many Zs 8Rs that are low standard. I believe they were made by revolutionary forces using both genuine and false Zs dies. The coins I own from that hoard (8 in all) and have tested and are debased slightly (between 750 and 850) to create an adequate incentive for the revolutionaries. Their primary incentive was most likely to get the US to rescind the buy orders for Zs 8Rs thereby cutting off some of the royalist funding.

I do not rule out a recently made Numismatic Forgery Class IIII because some tests with a NON-lab XRF show NO gold content and that is normally indicative of silver refined after 1880. A modern silver Numismatic forgery would be unlikely to contain gold but even if it did it would likely contain some rare earth metal traces or cadmium pointing to silver refined after 1900.

Since I first began writing about the use of XRF testing, things have advanced to the point where there are far more trace markers available than ever before and most of the recent discoveries are not being published openly for fear of warning modern forgers.

You clearly have in this case an example of a coin that requires a lab test using XRF or SMDS for certainty. They are still expensive tests and could cost about as much as this coin is worth. A preliminary XRF test with a hand held unit (far less expensive) would still possibly pick up one or two of the markers so it is definitely worth doing and reporting on.
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 Posted 07/10/2021  02:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hjian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob: Thanks for your information. I must be extremely lucky to encounter 2 counterfeit Zs coins from my two recent purchases of 8 reales. Last one was too small but too heavy and this one is too big but too light. I will definitely bring it to the refinery I used last time for XRF test.

One question I have is the technique to part gold from silver was not ready until late 1800. Why would US mint buy Zs silver from royalists at early 1800 to make profit from removing gold from silver?
Edited by hjian
07/10/2021 03:35 am
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 Posted 07/10/2021  9:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't put much credence in NGC calling a similar-dies piece "Not Genuine"... We both know they don't really know their A from their E when it comes to specifics with more esoteric Latin American coinage. I'd almost think it more likely for them to mistake this piece for some kind of modern fake rather than refuse than to holder it thinking it's Contemporary Counterfeit and/or "Genuine Dies" BUT debased (PCGS/NGC of course generally don't certify those).


Quote:
The War years in the branch mints are particularly difficult to classify because there were clearly production issues... Assays are known both under and over standard. Both Royalists and Revolutionaries used Zs dies at times... many Zs 8Rs that are low standard. I believe they were made by revolutionary forces using both genuine and false Zs dies.


Those key segments, I think, perfectly jive with:

Quote:
...2 "counterfeit" Zs coins from my two recent purchases of 8 reales. Last one was too small but too heavy and this one is too big but too light.


The later Zs issues are a mess to make sense of, aren't they? I'd say this piece is almost certainly of that period... but exactly does one classify it - even with a really precise XRF report? I mean, perhaps there could be additional reasons for debased coins from "genuine" dies besides Bob's overall reasonable theorizing? It was, after all, a turbulent time... debasement can happen just for simple fundraising reasons.

Bob, that hoard... in addition to a lot of 1816-1818 Zs pieces (of whatever type one wishes to call them)... also contained a number of earlier-dated Zs (1812,1813,1814 - scarce dates), plus some Durango and one or two Chihuahua and Mexico City mint (from the group photos I saw).

BTW, if you got them from the Chicago guy, he cleaned them all w/lemon juice and white vinegar :-> .
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 Posted 07/11/2021  01:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
hjian You ask:

Quote:
One question I have is the technique to part gold from silver was not ready until late 1800. Why would US mint buy Zs silver from royalists at early 1800 to make profit from removing gold from silver?


A significant clarification is needed regarding the gold trace in Mexican coins of 1820s to answer that inquiry. Bear with the description because it holds the key to what you look for as an authenticator. All of this information is public knowledge and I know that counterfeiters are aware of that fact, but they face a monumental task attempting to recreate the alloy because they really need to match the alloy date exactly to fool XRF. Their only resort would be to melt genuine coins of the same date as the targeted copy and that process creates other issues I will not address here. Needless to say the resultant effort would be costly in todays market for all but the rarest pieces.

The test that I rely on mostly is done with a hand held XRF unit. This is completely adequate for average value 8Rs but can be successful used in screening out coins of higher values because no damage is done to the coin at all. This unit can detect gold as being present in an 8R because the return signal can be detected at a depth that is thicker than the tarnish and fire scale layers on a typical screw press strike. The heavier the element being detected the higher the energy of the photon release and the deeper the handheld unit sees into the coin. That is why a handheld unit is unreliable in creating the copper silver ratio of an 8R accurately. Copper is too light an element so that the presence of copper is only seen in a much thinner layer at the surface of the coin which is effected by tarnish and fire scale layers. Therefore for copper and silver ratio accuracy and for other minor trace contaminants a lab XRF accurate to 10 ppm is needed at a much higher cost. Right now although costs have fallen precipitously since I began authentication this test can cost well over $100 per coin.

If the reading of gold using a Handheld XRF does not exceed 200 ppm there is absolutely NO chance the coin was made with silver refined in Mexico prior to the 1880-90 time frame. If the test falls in the range from 200 to 400 ppm the coin is still unlikely to have been made in Mexico, but a follow-up lab test is required for certainty. This is based on over 200 XRF tests conducted to date on a range of 8Rs using handheld units. The problem resulted from the fact that of the 200 coins tested 2 which I consider to be genuine beyond all doubt have fallen in the 200-400 range and I consider them suspect until tested more accurately so that trace contaminants in a far lower range can be confirmed. Museum authenticators of Mexican silver artifacts actually employ a higher gold trace standard in their work which my tests do not support. I suspect that the mints refined silver to a higher standard for coins than for use in silver artifacts.

The reason there is a remaining trace of gold is because parting (separation) methods in use in Mexico could not remove all of the gold from the silver produced by the mine Haciendas (refineries at or associated with the mines).

The underlying reasons are two fold. First silver and gold have a physical property unlike most metals. When melted they form a solution because they are mutually soluble in the liquid state. It is like mixing sugar into coffee. The sugar dissolves and spreads evenly in the water. One part of water contains the same amount of sugar as all others. The same thing happens when gold and silver are mixed together as a liquid when they are melted and poured into an ingot. Fortunately the level of solution is much lower than sugar and water or we would all still use electrum for coins.

How to overcome this tendency to mix required a brand new process not invented until the time of the Comstock lode in Colorado ca 1870 and not fully perfected until 1890 for industrial scale usage.

At Zacatecas and Guanajuato the mother load veins consists of a mixture of silver and gold in a quartz intrusion that was forced into cracks in the native rocks by superheated water during a volcanic uplift. The percentages vary but the two metals are always present together in most of Mexico. The uplift happened millions of years ago and involved the North American plate and the Pacific plate which were and still remain in contact (think San Andreas fault). The geologic process is interesting but not needed here. The tectonic plates of Colombia, Bolivia, Peru and Chile need to be considered distinctly when reviewing those uplifts for naturally occurring metals and for authentication of silver from those locals.

The silver ores encountered in the old world were of a different chemical type completely. Old world methods of refining did not apply to these new quartz deposits with their characteristic very low grade ores found in thin quartz veins. After much trial and error a process called the Patio Process was developed in Mexico and South America that was very successful. It used Mercury amalgamation to extract the metal from the quartz. This process was understood as early as 1500 but never employed in Europe because of alternative methods which yielded better results with their ore types.

The Patio Process starts with crushing the ore to a fine powder. Mixing this powder with salts and mercury in the hot sun on the stone surface of the "patio" starts the process. The mixture is stirred by mules walking in circles in the mud. This produced a mercuric mud which contained metals like gold, silver, copper, zinc, lead and iron (with other stuff as well). After the mud was dried and excess mercury was removed, the resulting cake was refined by smelting (oxidation) in a blast furnace it in a process more similar to that used in Europe but starting with a very high grade mix of metals. Mercury was recycled by capturing the vapor and condensing it, so losses of mercury (costly stuff) were controlled. Copper, iron, lead and all other reactive metals were removed leaving the gold and silver mixed together.

The method used to separate the gold from the silver was repeated cupellation which heated the metals to liquid state in a cupel made of powdered bone that oxidized the remaining base metals as slag and gravity resulted in the gold partially separating from the silver. A gold button formed at the point of the cone shaped cupel. The button of gold was removed, the slag was also removed and the process was repeated on all three portions. Every successive cupellation produced finer and finer gold at the base. However, gravity separation can not remove all the gold suspended in solution in the silver.

The Mexican mines operated on a for profit basis often with overseas owners running the show. So with the gold silver ratio fixed at 16 to 1 only so much effort could be employed to remove the gold before removal became unprofitable. The largest cost of cupellation was the fuel. Wood was used because coal could not be transported to the Haciendas before the advent of railroads. So in 1820 in Mexico, mine silver was considered to be "pure" when no more gold could be removed economically. That could require 4, 5, 6 or more successive cupellations. The mines in the mountains above the tree line faced the steepest costs for fuel since the local wood supply was exhausted early on. The number of cupellations could also be influenced by the need to produce output for operational expenses, payroll and of course for taxes being paid. The Royal tax.

Estimates vary but 99% was considered a good level of purity if fuel was abundant and fairly cheap. Acid reduction could be employed in a laboratory setting to purify silver further but in Mexico it was not used on an industrial level for numerous reasons, the largest being cost.

So on average silver from the mines was roughly 99% pure with the remainder being mostly gold. That is one percent of the bar or 10000 ppm gold and 990,000 ppm silver. That is one one hundredth part gold. That is really the upper limit expected to ever be encountered in raw Mexican silver before the Revolution in times of stability. I have actually encountered a Guanajuato 8 Reales from the first Republican era that tested about 8% gold (80,000 ppm gold 920,000 ppm silver). That occurred during the period when Anglo-Mexicana (Manning and Marshal) ran the mint under lease. So you can see the drive for silver sales at times caused very high gold contents coins to be released simply to pay the bills.

During the War things operated under much higher pressures and included which side happened to be running the show at any given time.

Wartime issues that were not parted at all could be much higher - as high as 9 or 10% gold. The reason is simple Mexico still employed Cupellation following the the Patio Process and during the War, time could not be wasted if troops needed to be paid or the government needed cash. Revolutionaries issued Royalist coins using silver debased with copper in hopes the Royalist issues would fall out of favor.

That is why wartime issues (Riddell's so called Hammered coinage) was being melted in very large batches at New Orleans beginning in 1839 - see his 1845 book. The wartime issues of Zacatecas and other mints were found to use raw silver that never was parted using cupellation at all resulting in a far different ratio more like 91% silver and 9% gold. From those coins, the US mint using their normal cupellation process could part a large percentage of the remaining gold and make 8 cents on average per coin. Gold was worth 16 times more than silver by weight, so the math is easy to do. Riddell notes up to 50,000 Mexican hammered coins were melted per year to mint coins at New Orleans.

About 1850 there were improvements made in England in parting gold from native argentiferous lead ores. Some silver was also created in the process but I now suspect that the gold trace may have remained. I am reading a new book that may shed light on that process so I can revise my trace levels for silver refined in the 1850s in England. For now, I consider that English silver could possibly contain less gold than Mexican for a number of reasons I need not discuss here.

The greatest innovations in parting a trace of gold from bulk silver happened rapidly in the US following the discovery of the massive Comstock silver lode in 1869. (Note: The reverse process of refining gold to remove a trace of silver was possible rather early on by the introduction of lead and additional silver into the alloy. That too is not important here.) Refining of silver in a 10-12 year period went from the crude method of the Patio Process (mercury amalgamation) to extraction using mercury, cyanide and gaseous chlorine to extract and part gold from silver. That created the first large scale availability of 99.99% fine silver. The use of electricity and improvements in generators and storage batteries shortly thereafter made modern 99.999% fine silver feasible.

So in a million words or less that is why the US mint could melt Mexican 8Rs at a profit in the 1830's - because it was not at war and fuel and acids were far cheaper to buy.
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 Posted 07/11/2021  10:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hjian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob: Thanks for the detailed reply. Comparing to the information I obtained, buying 2 counterfeit 8R doesn't make me feel unfortunate any more.
I should expect more than 500ppm gold trace for this coin to be genuine. I will keep you updated.
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 Posted 07/14/2021  7:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob, you mentioned that the (8) pieces you got from that northern Mexico hoard are between .750-.850 fineness. Did you deduce that from SG testing or did you XRF them? If the latter, what did it show for gold content?
Edited by realeswatcher
07/14/2021 8:12 pm
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 Posted 07/14/2021  10:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher My first check is always SG - it is easy and was the test Riddell himself used to find bad coins back in the 1840's. However, even at $5 each, the costs of XRF testing adds up too quickly for my present budget. In the case of most counterfeits, the test adds very little necessary information. In a perfect world with an unlimited budget, I would do both tests to every coin initially to get an improved view of the assay. In fact, I would use lab level XRF tests so that I could develop a more accurate table of trace contaminants.


Quote:
Also because of inherent issues with the depth of XRF test reliability, the silver assay of an 8R can not be accurately determined using only a handheld XRF unit.


As I have explained elsewhere, the depth from which a signal return (photon) can be detected with a handheld XRF varies with the density of the element and the energy released when an excited electron returns to its proper shell position after being excited by bombardment with X-rays. Copper is far too light in weight to create a return from under the typical layer of toning and fire scale found on early 8Rs. Gold being far more dense with an added shell of electrons has a return from a depth well beyond the surface layer. Silver sits in between gold and copper, so the return while somewhat more energetic will never be accurate to determine the average silver content for the coin's cross section because of surface copper depletion.

At several steps in the minting process, the coin or blank is subjected to washing in heated dilute acid to remove dirt, grease etc. This bath also chemically leaches some of the surface copper from the alloy. When a coin circulates, handling or storage under adverse conditions can also result in the loss of surface copper. When a coin is cleaned using acid more copper is removed. This results in the formation of a thin surface layer of enriched silver that matches identically the depth of copper depletion. The only accurate measurement of elemental composition from a handheld unit is the gold content. This is primarily because under most conditions gold can be considered as non reactive.

So, the handheld XRF will never give the correct reading of the silver/copper alloy across the entire thickness of the coin. It will read high in silver and low in copper. SG on the other hand measures the overall density of the entire coin and is a far more accurate representation of the silver alloy when the coin is composed only of silver and copper. The effect of normal trace contaminants is usually not adequate to affect the density. The only situation that adversely effects the accuracy of the SG test is the case when some Mexican silver coins contain a substantial trace of gold as a contaminant.

For example, the case where an 8R contains 8% of gold by weight (the highest single reading I have seen) there is a mathematically significant deviation in the calculated SG.

In case of a reading of higher than standard SG (10.31), the XRF test can determine if that result is due to an extremely high level of gold in the alloy.
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 Posted 07/14/2021  11:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So only the SG test, OK... you're deducing the silver fineness.

Now, hypothetically... while I'm not sure just how plausible this would have been in practice, if the silver fineness is low (60% wouldn't be shocking for a Ferd VII Zacatecas at all), a "moderate" amount of gold admixture wouldn't really push the SG figure conspicuously high. For example,

80% Ag + 20% Cu + 0% Au = SG of 10.17

60% Ag + 37% Cu + 3% Au = SG of 10.17

You noted that the 8% Au piece (early 1st Repub. Go) had a high SG, so presumably its silver content IS reasonably high. But for other pieces you've done XRF tests on which have indicated notably high amounts of gold, what percentages of silver and copper did XRF give?

-------------------------

PS - Is it correct to assume that, per your discussion of the density of copper vs. silver, effect of pickling, etc., if we're using a handheld XRF vs. a high-end, the percentage shown for Gold should be even MORE overstated than that for Silver?
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 Posted 07/15/2021  02:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher You ask:


Quote:
- Is it correct to assume that, per your discussion of the density of copper vs. silver, effect of pickling, etc., if we're using a handheld XRF vs. a high-end, the percentage shown for Gold should be even MORE overstated than that for Silver?


The short answer is No. That is not how XRF works. A comparison of the results of handheld versus lab XRF show a very close match in the gold trace. The gold is not effected by acid dipping or degradation like copper. It is the ratio of Silver to copper that is wrong. Each is about 5% off - silver is too high and copper is too low. That is about average based on readings of genuine modern US coins, which I view as close to correct.

Most decent XRF units will produce a total reading of approximating 100% when you add up all the reported elements. The lab level test always does by employing a scrubbing program to eliminate some minor uncertainties like echos or ghosts (for lack of a better word seen in some denser elements with three or more electron shells). However some handheld units can report a very clear non-100% result. This is usually because they have a much narrower band of elements that can be detected simultaneously. The lab XRF I have used is capable of reading from Carbon to Uranium on the periodic table as well as all elements in between to a max of 10ppm depending on duration of the scan. The longer the more accurate and more costly. Cheaper handheld units often need to be adjusted to read gold, copper and silver at one time. The missing few percent can be the presence of light metals like Aluminum that most handheld units do not see when set for gold. Some older units can never detect aluminum.

So keep in mind that most critical trace contaminants fall into the very dense portion of the periodic table and the most useful ones tend to be non-reactive metals. The best trace markers are difficult to remove chemically and they tend to remain permanently.

If you want to go really crazy, you can actually test for radioactive isotopes of elements to get a better identification of the source of the ore. These have been used to study trade routes between ancient old world cultures by tracing lead isotopes to known mining centers. Lead seems to get into most old world ores. Like carbon-14 for living materials other isotopes can date when the ores were last liquid which in turn can isolate which tectonic plate the mine was located on.

So if there is a 4% gold trace in a silver alloy coin, the silver and copper reported should add up to about 96%. The copper will be under reported a total of 3-5% which is a quite normal result for handheld. The silver will be reported as the balance or 91-93%. The ratio applies to the part of the coin visible to the XRF only. You need to be aware of the power level used to determine the depth of penetration. Tarnish and fire scale are of a known thickness. The hand held units can not see past. The lab type can see past and often by enough so that the final adjusted readings are quite close to the actual alloy.

Unfortunately the only way to be positive of the actual alloy is to cut the coin open. For museum pieces this is often done by grinding away the surface to a depth of 100 microns. For this reason I like counterfeits with holes drilled in them. It is possible to clean the drill hole removing all tarnish and fire scale which will yield an accurate alloy reading.

For obvious reasons, like the owner having a heart attack, that same method can not be used on a genuine coin.

Personally I believe that for high value rarities it makes some sense to make a very tiny edge cut and to test there.

Regarding your theoretical adjustment of the copper content to compensate for the gold value, I suppose it would have worked. But I know of nothing to indicate that it ever was. Nor would the output have been popular since the average mint was not yet capable of taking advantage of the adjustment.
As I noted earlier, the US mint had a buy order out for the War time 8 reales because of high gold content and a net yield above face value after allowing for costs of parting. So in my opinion, the mints must have been using raw mint produced silver/gold and adding 10 percent copper by weight in the presumption that the bars were pure or could be considered pure at an industrial level.
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 Posted 07/15/2021  02:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the response.

I was writing this out before I saw your response - just a random thought:

It wouldn't make as much sense now b/c of increased values for early Mexican coinage over the last decade... but one wonders whether any astute Mexican numismatic experts were melting low-grade pieces found to have high gold content at the peak of the 2011 gold/silver boom. You could still find lower-grade 1821Zs and some common date early Cap & Ray under $30... sometimes even 1816Zs, 1818Zs, maybe 1822Go. A full weight 8R with 5% Au and near 90% Ag would have about $100 combined bullion value with gold at $1800/oz. and silver at $40/oz.
Edited by realeswatcher
07/15/2021 02:43 am
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 Posted 07/15/2021  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hjian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have XRF results today. It does contain gold but less than 1%. For the comparison, I also tested two Chinese dollar from 1910-1920 and both of them contain no gold.
So this coin is not genuine?


1821-Zacatecas-Mint-8-Reales-Genuine-Or-Counterfeit
Edited by hjian
07/15/2021 9:06 pm
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 Posted 07/16/2021  02:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
hjian Based on the XRF results you ask:


Quote:
So this coin is not genuine?


You are incorrect - the test actually shows it is made with silver from Mexico, refined at the proper time and with the proper assay for a Mexico Royalist strike during a time of mint stability when at least some cupellation was used to part the majority of the gold.

The test results add up to 99.999% of the composition. That leaves only 10 PPM not accounted for. A good result for a handheld unit with no space for a typical modern contaminant to hide.

The copper depletion in this case is low only about 2 1/4% less than the standard alloy. Silver is too high by about the same amount. That is a very good result indicating to me that the coin has rather intact surfaces and is unlikely to have been dipped in acid recently to clean it. The test results suggest to me an uncleaned coin as it left the mint following the final mint bath. Even MS coins typically show copper depletion caused by acid dips before release into circulation.

The gold trace indicated is 790 ppm. That is well above the 400 ppm threshold that I use to confirm Mexican silver. It would also meet the gold level for at least one Museum laboratory that I am familiar with. The 790 ppm reading is subject to a standard deviation of 350 ppm which would give us a rather safe range of between 1140 ppm and 440 ppm.

A 1% gold trace equates to 10,000 ppm gold. A 0.1% trace is 1000 ppm and a 0.01% trace is 100 ppm.

The 1% level I was discussing would be for raw silver leaving the hacienda (refinery) during a time of clear instability when there was a sense of urgency to expedite the manufacture of coins. That the mint took time to part the gold to under 1/10th of a percent would actually fit the time period at the end of the war when things were already returning to normal. This can not be proven but it is consistent with other test results and I believe it can be inferred.

The test demonstrates to me that the coin is not an English counterfeit nor a counterfeit made after 1880 in the US. It also is unlikely to be a modern forgery either.

The rejection of a coin struck from very similar dies by NGC is now in my opinion in question since the rejection slip gives no specific answer as to on what basis the coin was rejected.

That is the nature of authentication. My mentor in authentication said:


Quote:
No coin can be absolutely proven to be genuine by tests but any of a number of tests can prove it is a
counterfeit.


Your coin passes all tests so far. At this point in time and with no other economical tests to suggest, I would say it is genuine.

It is a case of Original until proven Counterfeit.
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 Posted 07/16/2021  02:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher You ask:


Quote:
one wonders whether any astute Mexican numismatic experts were melting low-grade pieces found to have high gold content at the peak of the 2011 gold/silver boom.


In 2014 when my book was first published I gave a two hour presentation at the US Mexican Coin Convention outside Phoenix, Az. During that presentation I explained my theory about the large number of counterfeit coins made in the UK and US for the China market. I also discussed the use of XRF to test for gold since it was a necessary trace contaminant in all Mexican refined silver.

After the meeting a group of Mexican coin dealers and collectors wanted to speak with me on those two issues. One dealer from Monterrey, MX bought every remaining copy of my book on the last day of the convention (40 hardcover and 25 softcover) because he said;
Quote:
I had for the very first time in his recollection supplied a good reason for why there were so many high grade portrait 8Rs from the reigns of the two Carlos'. He also said he believed my book would sell very well in Mexico.
It was their observation that too many 8Rs still exist for these two kings compared to all the other 8R issues.

These same dealers also told be I was absolutely correct about gold in the Mexican silver coins and they confirmed that low grade coins from the era of the revolution and early republic were melted in large numbers at refineries recently to reclaim the gold. He said;
Quote:
The coins were worth more melted than as coins.
Edited by swamperbob
07/16/2021 02:26 am
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 Posted 07/16/2021  6:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hjian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob: This is a good news. My calculations was off. I was thinking 0.079% equals to 79ppm. 0.079% should have been 790ppm. This is similar to the gold trace before the war. My other two 8 reales from my previous post show similar amounts of gold.
Now we can conclude the bigger size and lighter weight of this coin is from the inconsistent production during the war. But what about the position between King Punch and legends? The spacing between letters seems to be narrower, too. I searched 1821 8 reales on ebay and Goggle image but I can't seem to find die type similar to this one. Can you share the image of that non-genuine NGC coin with me?

Also do grading companies use the copper trace from XRF test to determine if a coin has been cleaned or not.

Again thanks for all the information you have shared!
Edited by hjian
07/16/2021 6:53 pm
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 Posted 07/17/2021  12:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
hjian You ask:


Quote:
But what about the position between King Punch and legends? The spacing between letters seems to be narrower, too.


In my opinion the spacing of the letters and the overall relation of the legends to the portrait are normal variables on the dies made in 1821. This is because each die was made with many distinct punches. Working dies at this time were not produced from a master positive like modern coins. The modern process is referred to as hubbing. The positive master die is the hub.

In 1821 The King's Portrait was a single punch. Which logic seems to dictate would be added to the die face first. The other letters are punched in then the dental circle is added. The Portrait is the biggest punch used on the obverse die (Riddell call's it a King Punch) and the pressure needed to transfer an impression in the blank die face was about all the old manual screw presses were capable of generating. In the 1830's die making began using nearly full hubs and it is theorized that steam power may have been used in the more modern mints operated under lease to French or English interests.

I did locate the coin that the NGC rejected. Here it is showing the grading insert and the obverse.

1821-Zacatecas-Mint-8-Reales-Genuine-Or-Counterfeit

Here is the obverse - it is double struck.

1821-Zacatecas-Mint-8-Reales-Genuine-Or-Counterfeit

Here is the reverse die which has a single image.

1821-Zacatecas-Mint-8-Reales-Genuine-Or-Counterfeit

The coin that NGC has rejected has 7 berries in the laurel wreath and I am wondering why they believed it was "Not Genuine". Looking at the reject coin I noticed a planchet fracture (which many authenticators associate with German Silver counterfeits). The NGC coin has a field lump in the field in front of the King. That die with the same lump is something I have observed on other examples. I may have to locate one matching the rejected coin before I can settle this in my own mind.

It is of course possible that someone has recently made dies to strike numismatic forgeries from a genuine die style with 7 berries which also uses the pointed A font and the eccentric N font.
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