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Maundy Set In Paper Envelope

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rockfish's Avatar
Canada
217 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2021  6:25 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add rockfish to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I have an original envelope from the 1917 maundy monday with the 2 and the four in it, but not the one or three. Were partial sets ever given out? And I thought they were given out in white kid leather sachets. This one is a small buff envelope with original writing and date on it.
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Australia
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 Posted 12/15/2021  7:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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PaddyB's Avatar
United Kingdom
945 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2021  04:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PaddyB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Maundy money was issued in many different ways. The pouch was only used when the Monarch was presenting directly. Anyone could order a set from the bank - the more expensive sets came in fitted leatherette cases, but you could also get them loose. Your paper envelope maybe from the bank or just something the original owner put them in, with his own notes on the outside.
It would be unusual to order only a part set, so it is likely the other two coins have gone missing over the years. The Threepence may well have been spent as it was similar to the coins in circulation. The penny is likely to have been lost - they are so small!
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Princetane's Avatar
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 Posted 12/16/2021  04:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Princetane to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are probably right, but there is a wild other theory.

Each year the sovereign was supposed to give out the number of pence according to their age they were turning that year and to that many people.

So in 1917, King George was turning 52, having being born in 1865, so he would have given 52 pensioners each a purse containing 52 maundy pence in coins. Complete sets were given for each decade (So 5 complete sets of 1,2,3,4 pence and an additional tuppence). It's possible the other 5 sets sans a 4 pence had gone missing and the tuppence was an additional.

Just a theory.

PS for 2022, the recipients will hit the jackpot receiving 96 maundy pence each, likely 9 sets of 4 coins and a 4 pence and 2 pence coin as well!

PPS Would have felt sorry for the recipients in the year 1423 when Henry VI was just 4 months old, one person would have received a farthing!
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NumisRob's Avatar
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 Posted 12/16/2021  04:54 am  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
with Princetane.
Extra coins of some denominations are given out to participants if the number of years in a monarch's age is not divisible by 10.

Also with PaddyB - the Maundy penny is tiny and very easy to lose. It's possible that this started out as a complete set, but the recipient mislaid the penny and just spent the threepence as normal money: until 1927 Maundy and circulation threepences had the same design.
Edited by NumisRob
12/16/2021 04:56 am
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rockfish's Avatar
Canada
217 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2021  8:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rockfish to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks all, and I like the wild theory. Also I believe the King handed them out personally that year as I think it was in London that year. There is an old newsreel I saw of him handing it out. I'd love to know if mine were actually handed out by the king. I will post pics soon. The writing on the envelope says "to the lay vicar of Westminster Abbey" which I think refers to the adult choristers. So it seems possible it was given to him by the King. (?)
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Mr T's Avatar
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 Posted 12/21/2021  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Extra coins of some denominations are given out to participants if the number of years in a monarch's age is not divisible by 10.


Are the same number of each denomination produced each year then?
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Princetane's Avatar
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 Posted 12/21/2021  8:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Princetane to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No what he meant is that a complete set of Maundy coins comes to 10 pence (1 + 2 + 3 + 4) and the monarch is meant to pay out the same amount of pence to each recipient as the age he/she is. So if the King is 52 he will hand out 52 pence, if he is 53 he will hand out 53 pence etc.

The coins are minted in advance and the ones for the ceremonies are separated out. Complete sets of 4 coins make up each decade and then the age between 0 and 9 includes the following

1, 2, 3, 4 - A single coin for each year (1 = 1 penny, 2 = 2 pence etc)
5 = 4 + 1 or 2 + 3 etc
6 = 2 + 4 pence (So if our queen is 96, each pensioner gets 9 complete sets of 4 coins (1, 2, 3, 4 pence) and an additional 4 pence and 2 pence, meaning they receive 10 x 2 pence and 4 pence and 9 x 1 pence and 3 pence - a total of 38 coins.

7 = 3 + 4 pence
8 = 3 + 4 + 1 pence
9 = 2 + 3 + 4 pence
10 = Complete set of coins.

It is designed so each coin is only used once.

But it is obvious that some several thousand maundy sets are minted each year and no doubt leftovers are sold or given away. This got really bad in the late 19th century and early 20th century, but George V put a stop to this (To him a traditionalist the Maundy ceremony was sacred and not a commercial enterprise). I mean the proof sets of 1887, 1893, 1902 and 1911 included Maundy coins!

Even if the monarch lived to 100, that would still mean only 1000 sets of coins were given out (40 coins x 1000 = 10 complete sets for each of the 100 pensioners).

Also all Maundy coins are Sterling silver, until 1919 they were sterling too, but in 1920 - 1946 they were dropped to 50% silver like standard coins. In 1947 they actually restored the Maundy coins to Sterling silver rather than drop to Cupronickel like standard coins.

In 1971 the value of the coins merely adjusted to new pence, so the 10 pence of 1971 now was equivalent to 2 shillings in old money. Maundy coins to 1970 were face valued at 10d or 4.167 new pence.

Designs did not change and have not changed since the 1820s.

Maundy ceremonies go back at least to Edward IV (1470s) and maybe earlier, but no special Maundy coins were likely made until the 1670s and not fully so until 1821 under George IV, It was not done every year until 1834 onwards and its likely before 1817 - the coins used were standard low value silver coins commonplace until the 1820s.

For instance in George III's long reign he presented Maundy coins only 10 times and 8 of them were before 1790 and the last 3 times were 1792, 1795 and 1800. Maundy was done in 1817,1818 and 1820 but likely by the Prince Regent (George IV) as George III was in his dotage at the time. Even worse is he may have sanctioned the ceremony, he did not attend it.
Edited by Princetane
12/21/2021 8:06 pm
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