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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,240 |
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New Member
Australia
6 Posts |
Surely people are working on them.
If technology exists to recognise people's faces, surely coins shouldn't be a problem.
MS65 or MS64 - stick it in the machine and find out.
I never come across a coin like this before, what is it - stick it in the machine and find out.
Is this patina hiding something nasty underneath - stick it in the machine and find out.
Is this a genuine 8 reales piece or a Chinese knockoff - stick it in the machine and find out.
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Valued Member
United States
292 Posts |
Yes with the advancement in AI I do think this will become apart of grading.
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Rest in Peace
United States
18456 Posts |
I think it would be like fishing . In the good old days you found a good spot to drop your anchor by just using a simple dept finder . Now in the high tech world you could find the fish , view the fish even know what species they are . Is that really what recreational fishing is all about ? NO! Another words a machine to tell you all those things you mentioned ,would be destroying all the fun and excitement of old school coin collecting . Hopefully I'm getting my message across to you .    |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Seems inevitable doesn't it. Like doing away with umpire ball-and-strike calling.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7273 Posts |
Its actually kind of easy, you take a picture, count the marks, that gives a you an MS Grade. For circulated coins you have pictures of million of coins using true view and other formats. You can use AI to figure out the grade. BUT it won't happen. Because the TPG have an incentive to keep the grades fluid. Probably somewhere 10-25% (pure guess) of all submissions are regrading, so that's a large incentive to keep people and their biases grading. And if we ever get AI grading, we would get a 4th party grader to say yes its PF70, but this PF 70 with my orange sticker has better eye appeal. For the foreseeable future you will have people grading coins. For some of the more common coins (like ASE/Proofs/Moderns) they might go to AI, but for the majority coins you will probably have people grading coins. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1316 Posts |
There are enough nuances to each and every coin that completely removing the human eye from the equation seems unlikely, especially if the end game is grade = value. Sure, the system can print a grade on the label, but we'll still be sitting here debating its accuracy all the same. Every coin lived a different life in what dies struck and in what state struck them, bag they ended up in, where they traveled, if they ended up in pockets and were spent, when a collector or hoarder decided to stash them away and what sort of care then received thereafter, etc. So that computer is just estimating anyways. (A lot AI is an educated guess). It will never be 100% exact anyways.
A lot of value is tied to eye appeal. Is the coin actually pretty for its technical grade. Pretty coins bring premiums, ugly coins might have to discount. But that can ultimately just be in the eye of a few beholders and a computer can't tell us that.
The act of holding and judging a coin is a great deal of the experience and fun of this hobby. Would computer commoditization just be a buzzkill on the hobby? It would certainly eliminate the need to be knowledgeable and that is a major loss already. Would this drive out the passioned collectors at the heart of this who prop the base of the market up and tell them to find their fun elsewhere such that a few investors can achieve their commoditization goals, and except for a few top of the market rarities, the market otherwise dies and we almost all lose.
They are making some solid strides when it comes to authenticity, which is a rather black & white point. This is awesome.
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Valued Member
United States
191 Posts |
Yes, AI as it now exists would be able to accurately grade.
But AI will be obstructed as those currently making armfuls of money from grading will do all they can to delay it.
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New Member
Canada
41 Posts |
I've been collecting coins since the mid 1970's...I have always considered it a fun hobby.
I do not have any officially graded coins, but I have many high grade coins, does that make them less valuable?
When did "grading" as we know it begin?
If you invest in graded coins, who is your "exit plan" buyer?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1373 Posts |
Humans to this day can't always get it right, so.......since machines are made by humans.......not gonna happen.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3328 Posts |
I imagine if the technology was ever created, the patent would get purchased by TPG companies for use or to stop it from becoming anything. Much like the first electric cars having there patent bought by big oil, they didn't plan on using the invention, they simply purchased it to stop the loss of profit. |
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Moderator
 United States
187760 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3323 Posts |
Quote:
A lot of value is tied to eye appeal.  The graders' opinions of eye appeal at that. Until that can be factored into the software, you would only be getting a technical grade and most of us can zero in on that without much help. If machines start grading coins, it could also mean wholesale changes in the pricing structure. I think that if I (as a nobody in the numismatic realm) submit a coin that meets all the criteria for a grade rarity, I may stand less of a chance of actually achieving that grade - the market often determines grade up in the stratosphere... Edit: of course, I'm not speaking of modern NIFC items where everything pretty much ends up as a 69/70. "Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
Edited by Bump111
02/14/2022 3:50 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19126 Posts |
The Coin Community Forum is kinda like a numismatic machine. Stick a coin in and find something out...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4680 Posts |
Besides what's been said about the eye appeal factor, there's plenty of other variables.
What about weak strikes? Later die states? I agree, AI could very easily count the number of contact marks on a coin, but what about planchet marks not removed by strike confused as post mint hits? Soft strikes confused as wear? LDS causing a lack of details? The variance in luster from series to series, let alone the variance between different dates/mints within a series. Determining market acceptable cleanings from 100 years ago that have toned over?
Too many variables. Not gunna happen in the foreseeable future, IMO
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Moderator
Australia
16809 Posts |
Sounds like you're wishing for a "coin tricorder" - something you can just point at a coin and it not only scans the coin, but reads your mind and tells you exactly what you want to know about that coin. A tricorder is still a long way off, but at least some of this technology is already here, though in separate devices. Quote:
MS65 or MS64 - stick it in the machine and find out. They tried objective, photography-based grading way back in the day, with companies like Photograde and Accugrade. The results were lacklustre. I'm not entirely sure AI would improve things, as it's difficult to teach an AI "art", and high-end grading is more art than science. Quote:
I never come across a coin like this before, what is it - stick it in the machine and find out. We already have this. Apps like Coinoscope, which you can download on your phone. Take a pic of an unidientified coin with your phone, and it identifies it for you. The AI behind the app is good enough for the answers to be quite accurate, or at least accurate enough to be helpful. Quote:
Is this patina hiding something nasty underneath - stick it in the machine and find out. Corrosion is tricky - it might be thin or thick, and a photograph only looks at the surface. So this would require more than an AI scanning a photograph - this needs some more high-tech analysis, like X-ray or MRI imaging to see through and underneath a corrosion layer. Quote:
Is this a genuine 8 reales piece or a Chinese knockoff - stick it in the machine and find out. Imaging may help here, but a good enough copy will fool an imager - and once the image-recognition tech becomes mainstream, the counterfeiters will simply learn what they need to do to fool it. But again, more high-tech chemical analysis can be helpful here, as counterfeiters rarely go to the trouble of precisely matching an old coin's composition. We already have handheld XRF devices, which are the closest thing we've yet come to a "tricorder" that can chemically analyse something just by pointing at it, though they are expensive and unwieldy (and not to mention slightly dangerous). Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
For coin identification as Sap said we have something close to that with the Coinoscope or similar apps, as for grading 1991 PCGS Expert System.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,240 |
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Posted 02/14/2022 09:49 am
to the Community! 
