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Valued Member
Australia
134 Posts |
The Kangaroo Office. Did it really ever exist as it is portrayed by the numismatic fraternity? It would seem the data says not really. Was it ever an attempt at a 'mint'? Seems an unlikely motive. Seems the numismatic narrative is what is worth the big money and the tokens are just supportive of that narrative. Is it truer that the Kangaroo Office was just another shop but with a token press out the back so as to facilitate tokens in the colony as a side venture to the primary objective of the venture to establish a successful stores shop; the data seems to say that is closer to reality. https://numismatics.org.au/naa-journal/1988/The Kangaroo Office story you can find at the above link is one that it was a sting. Perhaps not so much a sting but people ended up stung, if it is true then that much is certain. If the story in NAA Vol 4, and it is well qualified, is even close to true (and it seems truer than the idea Taylor's primary objective was to set up a mint, make a small fortune doing so, and Port Phillip's were intended to become some sort of standard) then the Kangaroo Office was just another store and some well off collectors have paid some big bucks for tokens that really do not have a place in Australian coin history. Collectors love a good story. That much is true. Perhaps the Kangaroo Office's real story doesn't have the happy ending for some collectors that we all have been led to believe. *** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
12577 Posts |
 billben! Not sure I understand what you're trying to get at but looking forward to reading the article. Thanks for the link.
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
24884 Posts |
 To the Forum.
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Valued Member
 Australia
134 Posts |
What I am getting at is that after reading the well researched article in NAA Vol 4 it is hard to believe the standard narrative about the Kangaroo Office.
If the article is accurate then the gold tokens, the Port Phillip issues, are relatively meaningless in Australian coin history and it is only the different, widely held, collectors narrative that sees them have a place they arguably do not deserve.
Adelaide Pounds are the real deal, i.e. an attempt at currency but the Port Phillip tokens (2oz, 1oz 1/2oz and 1/4oz) aren't even close to that. They are just good looking tokens if the story in the NAA Vol 4 is accurate.
If the link, in my earlier post, to the story does not work then just Google the Numismatic Assoc of Australia and navigate to the past issues and download the Kangaroo Office story in Issue 4.
In a current advertisement for a Melbourne Exhibition 1854 token ($599), from a well known dealer, we see the following: "Reginald Scaife arrived in Melbourne on the Kangaroo on 27th October 1853, with instructions to establish Australia's first private mint."
"Were they his actual instructions; where do we find that? It is just unqualified narrative; a good story.
I doubt the claim is even true because Taylor goes to the gallows back in England if the establishment finds out he is operating an unauthorized mint in the colony.
'Mint' is the numismatic narrative, producing a product to alleviate the coin shortage another narrative, the venture's focus was to make strong profit on the margin between gold prices another narrative and to be blunt the records and events of the time that are found in the NAA article just do not support such narratives. It is on the back of these unqualified, yet ubiquitous, more interesting narratives the tokens have their place in history.
After reading the story I found myself asking, if that is true and it is well referenced, how are these tokens part of our coin history?
If I believe the narrative that flows through the numismatic world that these tokens are the product of a failed mint attempt then it was a pretty rubbish attempt by people whose resumes are much more impressive than to be connected to such a failure.
The players seem to be better than that so I would tend to subscribe to the theory in the article that the press was a secondary part of the venture and that the venture, selling stores, flopped because of the significant influx of stores entering the port on a daily basis.
It seems tokens were coming from England prior to the arrival of the Kangaroo so why not send a press to the colony? There is probably an extra buck in that. Why not have a crack at making a buck from pressing some cheap gold? Could be some extra money in that. Why not show up at the exhibition just like they would in the mother country?
I just can't see this as a failed mint attempt. When the store venture failed, the press went down with it.
No one is talking to anyone in authority at either end of this venture; because you don't need to if you are just opening a store and pressing tokens. As already said, someone likely swings if they set up an unauthorized mint.
Would have been quite interesting to see how the State responded had the gold token thing took off. It isn't hard to find objection at a Parliamentary level to tokens being used as pseudo currency.
Where does that leave the tokens apart from being a pretty example of what the press could do? The press ultimately did its job, Stokes made good money pressing tokens with it.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the Port Phillip issue tokens as it has a real Aussie flavor even though the dies were coming out of England.
Without that colorful narrative the Port Phillip tokens have no place in history other than being nice example of what the first press sent to Melbourne could do. That would be how I sum up the NAA article.
As the NAA article says, it is all about the story for collectors. Tokens that have no story, gold or not, really aren't going to inspire a collector to shell out a 6 figure sum.
I don't think the accepted narrative is about to go away; too much is invested in it and it isn't just about the money; egos are at stake.
It is an interesting well researched article that makes one think maybe all is not how it is portrayed.
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
94367 Posts |
 to the CCF!
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Valued Member
 Australia
134 Posts |
Why not show up the Exhibition and show off what the press can do 
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Valued Member
 Australia
134 Posts |
This Power House Museum piece is interesting. No date and no source. Actually looks quite contemporary. There is a silver version as well. 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
878 Posts |
A subsidiary of the lesser bilby post, no doubt.
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Valued Member
 Australia
134 Posts |
Scaifes agreement states: 25th June 1853 Whereas the said Reginald Scaife is about to sail to Australia in order to settle himself there as a Merchant And whereas the said Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor are the owners of a stamping press and apparatus for the purpose of assaying and stamping gold and other metals together with dies for stamping the said gold into pieces of specific weight which have been prepared by Thomas Hodgkin Peter Tindall and William Joseph Taylor have proposed to the said Reginald Scaife that he should establish and carry on in Australia the business of purchasing Gold and Gold dust there and smelting and stamping the same by means of said stamping press and apparatus and Dies into pieces of Gold of certain specific weights and then purchasing other Gold and Gold dust by the barter of exchange of those pieces of stamped Gold for other unstamped Gold and Gold dust.....
Scaife is about to leave to become a merchant, that is the initial agreement, and enters into a further (secondary) agreement that involves buying gold, assaying it and turning it into pieces of specific weights, as well as producing other tokens.
It is curious that a few high end collectors want these gold oddities and next thing we know a token, a weight, a memento of an exhibition, the product of a hopeless business model, has become one of the most prized items, if price is our indicator, in Australian numismatics. Not a pattern, not a coin but in the top echelon of Australian coin collecting; strange.
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Valued Member
 Australia
134 Posts |
The "INGOTS" and "ASSAY OFFICE PIECES" of South Australia An interesting book that does two things. It goes through all the colonial politics of the Adelaide Assay Office and it describes the pieces, ingots and "coin-tokens" in detail. What comes out of this book is that there is absolutely no chance the Kangaroo Office press was ever going to be more than a token press and there was no chance the gold tokens would ever be circulating currency. By the time the Kangaroo (ship) landed the South Australia assay office proposal was enough down the track that even buying gold in Victoria, in any decent quantity, would have been challenging. Gold flowed from Victoria to South Australia on the back of the South Australia response to gold in Victoria. This book is very insightful as to what was occurring at a Government and Crown level with gold, coinage and how the various colonies reacted to the circumstances cause by the overabundance of gold. A private mint is only a mint in terms of producing (minting) tokens and is by no stretch of the imagination a real mint, i.e. coinage by Royal Prerogative. People should stop calling the Kangaroo Office a mint unless they clarify it was to 'mint' tokens. Although the book doesn't make reference to the Kangaroo Office it leaps off the pages that the South Australia response to circumstances cause by 'endless gold' demonstrates the idea of a private mint making gold tokens as pseudo currency was never gong to happen, the banks would not have allowed it. Unless it was the banks doing it and they couldn't because the Crown would likely have intervened. It comes off the pages that in 1853 Victoria had been for some time, like Sydney and Adelaide, pressing the Crown for approval for a branch of The Royal Mint in their respective capitals. As we know Sydney wins that race. The writing for a real mint in Australia was on the wall well before Taylor and Co even thought about a shop in Melbourne. The Kangaroo Office press had potential for tokens but circumstances saw that potential never fulfilled at the Kangaroo Office. As we know, Scaife, the boss of the Kangaroo Office used up all his copper tokens from the Kangaroo (ship) with ease and perhaps not sending for a lot, lot, more was a failure by management to read the market. Excuse the pun but there was some good coin to be made pressing tokens. Taylor shows some persistence with some of his work in London after the demise of the Kangaroo Office, the alleged pattern pence coins that nobody asked for, but by this time there is a mint in Australia and the coinage problem mostly solved. It isn't until after Taylors' death that we see a real push for Australian coins and the interesting part of that push is that prior to 1904 there was talk of going decimal. "As the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury are of opinion that it should be desirable that the coins for Australian use should be of special design, and not differen¬tiated from the Imperial tokens by a mere mint-mark, I shall be glad if the Mint author¬ities in England can be asked to undertake the preparation of the special designs without delay, so that the new coinage may be com¬menced as early as possible ... Ministers are of opinion that some time may elapse before the adoption of the Decimal System for gen¬eral use in Australia is sanctioned by Parliament, and a still further period must be allowed to pass before it can be brought into actual operation. They think, therefore, that it is not expedient to await the Decimal System introduction before entering upon the new arrangements which have been proposed." G.H. Reid Department of External Affairs. Melbourne, 20th. October, 1904. Lost opportunity still seems to be the theme when it comes to those we foolishly choose to empower. Anyway, the Ingots and Assay Office Pieces book is a dull but very informative read and it goes a long way to helping one understand the embellishment that surrounds the Kangaroo Office story. The press was just a means to press tokens if that is what you mean by mint, the gold tokens just that; gold tokens. Nice tokens. If the 1823 Tasmania token was gold it would be gorgeous and it has its own back-story worthy of telling. The depiction of the kangaroo on it is priceless. Have these people even seen a real kangaroo? How do a few gold tokens from the Kangaroo Office end up as one of the most prized items in Aussie coin collecting? It comes down to, amongst other things, who has those few tokens and the perception others have of those few who hold them. One thing researching the tokens shows is that there are the genuine Kangaroo Office issues, perhaps some Taylor (pressed in London) issues, the Stokes restrikes and the fabulously mischievous Gee forgeries (the things some people do for fun). The Perth Mint 2 ounce gold is quite a nice modern reproduction. Whatever one makes of them they are all definitely a conversation piece. 
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Valued Member
 Australia
134 Posts |
I am still not sold that these rather nice gold oddities, the Kangaroo Office Issues, deserve to even be considered in a coin catalogue.
The Kangaroo Office narrative from one highly reputable coin dealer goes as follows: "Towards the end of 1852 Taylor became aware that gold could be bought from diggers on the Ballarat fields at greatly reduced prices .. The Kangaroo Office was under financial pressure right from the outset. By the time the mint was operational gold, which had been £2/15/- (55s) per ounce when the plan was hatched, had moved up to £4/4/- (84s) an ounce. And there was a glut of English sovereigns in circulation."
But how true is this? The Kangaroo (ship) arrives in the spring of 1853. The plan was 'hatched' in 1852. The narrative claims: "Towards the end of 1852 Taylor became aware that gold could be bought from diggers on the Ballarat fields at greatly reduced prices. His plan was to establish a private mint in Melbourne, strike gold coins and release them at their full value in London."
Well before the Kangaroo lifts anchor The London Times reports in Jan 1853: Victorian gold is fine and pure.N.S.W. gold sells at £3.7.6 (67.5s) oz.Victorian fields at Mt. Alexander, Bendigo and Ballarat yield at £3.10.9 (70.75s) even at Sydney.
Sir Isaac Newton, as master of the U.K. Mint, set the gold price at £3.17s. 10d. (77.8s) per troy ounce in 1717, and it remained effectively the same for two hundred years until 1914.
The Bullion Act of January 1852 set a price for gold in South Australia at 3 pounds 11 shilling (71s), a price that saw gold flowing from Victoria into South Australia. The Victorian Legislative Assembly was at one point informed that over half a million of gold had been transferred to South Australia to fetch the premium price. It was estimated at that over £1.6 million pounds worth of gold flowed from Victoria to South Australia between March and December 1852. (Around 14000 kilos)
Scaife, Boss Level at the Kangaroo Office, even states in correspondence: Such a thing as Gold being bought in Melbourne from Diggers is quite an exception to the general rule, and the amount so purchased are very trifling. It is usual for the Diggers to sell their gold either to a store keeper or the Agents of the Banks at the Diggings and this latter for some time, comparatively become the sole purchasers. (SA banks had agents in the field at Ballart and Mt Alexander)
The narrative claims a price of 84 shilling per ounce, we must believe that is a price in Melbourne as we are talking about the circumstance of the Kangaroo Office, yet we see gold moving from Victoria to South Australia in 1852/53 to fetch the premium price of 71 shillings set by the Bullion Act.
When was gold ever the 84 shillings claimed in the narrative? When was it ever the 55 shillings in the time frame we are looking at?
From Jan 1852 gold was 71 shilling in South Australia, from before the Kangaroo Office venture even had momentum. And as we see from UK history the gold price remained very stable for close to 200 years.
At best one was looking at something in the order of 10 shilling per ounce benefit between field price and London price. Could gold be sourced, transported, refined and sold to exploit the differential - not really. To buy an ounce in the field and refine, assay it and then turn it into weights in Australia may have offered some margin but simply building a shop with a press out back was not going to see that advantage eventuate.
The Kangaroo Office narrative throws around numbers that do not seem consistent with actual prices and events of the times. Why would anyone send a press to Melbourne in late 1852 when it is well known, even in England, that gold is flowing out of the Victoria colony, literally by the ton? I think we need to look realistically at the facts and not overly embellish a fringe part of the project.
Yes,Taylors and Co had an agreement, a supplementary agreement, with Scaife to make tokens, some gold, but the idea the Kangaroo Office enterprise was driven by the idea of a profiteering mint to introduce a medium into an almost empty (coin) space is just absurd. Taylor and Co would have to be oblivious to the goings on in Australia if that was indeed their plan and to hatch such a plan with no knowledge of the market is just one for asylum dwellers. One would need to be 'nuts' to think they could send a press to Melbourne and make swags of cash on a differential that did not to exist.
As an aside: The price difference between the Bullion Act and London explain why the South Australian banks were not handing out Adelaide Pounds when colonist sought to redeem their notes for gold.
The press of the day who were at times rather critical of the Bullion Act explains this by stating: "As the banks in this small community absorb all the business transactions, the tokens will either be deposited there by private parties, or will follow the course of the ingots as previously, and be transferred direct from the Assay Office to the banks, who will take care to retain them in their coffers, and to issue sovereigns or silver in payment of their notes. The banks, it may safely be presumed, will not give the public gold tokens, at £3 11s per ounce, as long as they can give them the same article, in the shape of British coin at £3 17s 101d. The direct effect, therefore, of the present measure will be to bring into circulation, more extensively than at present, the coinage of Great Britain, and the tokens will only be met with as 'curiosities'." Containing approximately 135 grains of 22-carat gold the intrinsic value of the "coin-tokens" in South Australia under the Act was £1; whilst in England they were worth £1 is 10.8d. Only four "coin-tokens" were publicly issued in 1852.
Forty thousand pound of coin had arrived from England in December of 1852 so of course the banks were inclined to pay colonist in sovereigns once the Act wound up.
Also, consider the 4 month communication lag between Adelaide and London. Adelaide notify London of the Bullion Act in late Jan 1852, it is maybe late May by the time London find out what is going on. In Dec 1852 £40,000 pounds of coin arrives in Adelaide. That was the response from London and that shipment would have left in late July early August to be in Adelaide on the 9th of December. Between May, London becoming aware of what South Australia had done and July /Aug when London acted, London organised a problem solving shipment of coin.
It is interesting that on Nov 11 1852 the Bullion Act is amended to make the coin-tokens, as they are called (the Adelaide Pound), legal tender. Seems the Legislative Council didn't know a boat load of cash was just weeks from the dock.
The Assay Office scheme, excuse he pun, pressed the Crown to get its act together and take care of the colony. The Adelaide pound was not so much an act of rebellion but it required rebellion and kudos to all those who chose to rebel as it seems to have saved the colony from bankruptcy.
Considering what went down in Adelaide and what is claimed about the Kangaroo Office it seems we are celebrating a handful of gold tokens from a group of fools, that is if we believe the narrative that alleged reputable sources spread, spread as if it were Vegemite on their morning toast..
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Valued Member
 Australia
134 Posts |
Quote: Adelaide notify London of the Bullion Act in late Jan 1852, it is maybe late May by the time London find out what is going on. In Dec 1852 £40,000 pounds of coin arrives in Adelaide. I should mention that prior to the 40,000 in December there were a few other shipments. The Coromandel, around August, brought 40,000 to Melbourne destined for Adelaide. Additionally the Adelaide and the Medina brought another 31,000 in Sept and the Sydney also brought more specie in October. Over a million and half pounds worth of gold flowed into South Australia in a relatively short period, over 100,000 pound of realm coin was sent to the colony in roughly the same period. There still was desire to 'mint' coin; to have a mint. The cost, and time, to send gold to England to have it turned into realm coin was high relative to coining, on-site, in Australia. Australia was overflowing with gold wealth, Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide were all pressing for a mint. The interest here is that Adelaide did coin but there wasn't really a need for it by the time they did it. It was more about convenience for the colonist and especially for the banks. For the Kangaroo Office the interest is we see tens of thousands of realm coin coming to the colonies as regular shipments and gold prices fixed, at least in South Australia, by legislation. The other colonies running slightly lesser prices. During the time of the Bullion Act it was even pressed in November 1852 to make the gold price the London price of the time. Everyone in Australia is screaming for a real mint, the gold prices are excellent and coin of the realm is flowing freely. All long before the Kangaroo sets sail. What was Taylor thinking; not what the narrative suggests I would think.
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Valued Member
 Australia
134 Posts |
Thank you Santa 
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Valued Member
 Australia
134 Posts |
In 1864 W S W Vaux, Head of Coins and Tokens at the British Museum introduced these Kangaroo Office pieces in the Royal Numismatic Society published The Numismatic Chronicle and Journal of the Numismatic Society , 1864, New Series, Vol. 4 (1864), pp. 64-65. He was believed because nobody knew any better. The Kangaroo Office issues are not coins, they are not even tokens. At best they are medals according to J Sharples of the Victoria Museum, but I prefer to call them weights; it even says the weight on them. The pieces are not patterns and were not referred to as such until Vaux did in 1864. The pieces were not produced in Port Phillip in 1853. Vaux also shows his geography needs work, also calls a exhibition medal screw press in a store in Melbourne a separate mint and goes above and beyond when he claims the colony intended these for the national coinage. Oh please! Vaux 1864 PROPOSED COINAGE FOR PORT PHILLIP, AUSTRALIA, IN 1853. I have much pleasure in calling attention to four curious pattern pieces in gold, struck in the year 1853, when it was proposed to erect a separate mint for Port Philip (Melbourne), in South Australia. They cannot indeed be considered as specimens of art, but they will serve here- after as an interesting record of what the most prosperous colony England has ever founded intended as the type of their national coinage. We know better now but even the British Museum has not let go of the false narrative. Vaux got duped by William Morgan Brown; the Museum should own it. You will not find Vaux's flap trap on the Victoria Museum website and kudos to them for telling it how it is, even if it means it embarrasses a lot of alleged 'expert' people, and collectors who paid top dollar for their Melbourne Exhibition mementos. 
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Moderator
 Australia
16470 Posts |
I would not call them "weights", as "weights" are made of base-metal; you don't make "weights" out of the precious things you're intending to weigh.
If one is reluctant to call them "private patterns", as they are traditionally designated, I would call them "bullion rounds", as they seem to have been intended to serve much the same function as bullion rounds today: readily tradable forms of refined gold.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Valued Member
 Australia
134 Posts |
Quote: If one is reluctant to call them "private patterns", as they are traditionally designated, I would call them "bullion rounds" Bullion rounds is an interesting call. They do somewhat meet that definition. Sharples call of medals is probably the one I feel is most accurate. They are weights not in the context of a standard against which things are weighed. When I say weights I mean what is a gold bullion round (of a specific weight). Thanks for that I think I might use round from now on if I don't use medal. I can't use coin or token because that they are not. Private patterns? Patterns is not what the manufacturers were calling them and the "traditional designation" comes from Vaux in his disturbingly wrong introduction in 1864. There is no basis for Vaux's call. They are not patterns. Why do we maintain the false narrative? The point I am trying to make is the numismatic narrative on these pieces is rubbish yet numismatic does not seem to be able to let go of it. Do we maintain the lie or do we tell it how it is even if it means we dent some egos. How does a gold bullion round end up at the apex of coin collecting; a wrong traditional designation?
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Replies: 78 / Views: 7,347 |
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