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 Replies: 52 / Views: 7,010 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
630 Posts |
I saw this coin on an ebay seller's page. I am 100% certain that's it's a Cast counterfeit-and a new one at that. Looking over his other coins, it seems that he has several cast counterfeit NJ colonials, all different varieties, and all are of the same primitive sand-cast manufacture, scratches added, etc. No detectable wear or problems associated with circulation of a colonial copper. On this one, the solid bar seen between AE and S does not exist in any die state of the variety. Besides, all of his cast NJ's have more bubbles than any Champaigne ever uncorked. What do you think?   Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/21/2022 6:23 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
With plenty of reputable copper sellers/dealers out there and trading within C4 and EAC, there's no reason to spend money with a seller whose coins are suspicious. You already see the red flags, so pay heed to them!
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4468 Posts |
The photos make the coin look unnatural, staged, or cleaned. I do see the bar between the AE and S, but have no idea if the example is a counterfeit. The seller Frisco Mint in Austin TX handles a lot of old copper and colonials on ebay and Collectors Corner, and to my knowledge no problems with selling counterfeits. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
630 Posts |
Slider23: they are scans I am pretty sure; tt seems that the 3 top TPGers can't tell the difference either between struck and cast colonials, from what we have seen
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/21/2022 9:05 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
517 Posts |
I would think you would want to see the edge! I am curious who has these listed on the Bay...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4468 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
That's Frisco.
Lucas and Travis are good guys. If Frisco's listing them, they're probably legit.
Most of their other colonials look just fine to me.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Edited by paralyse
12/21/2022 11:07 pm
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Valued Member
United States
416 Posts |
Earlycents/Frisco, they are very well known and have the widest offering of old coppers of anyone in the world, unless I am missing someone. Can't imagine they would be selling a fake.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
517 Posts |
Mistakes can be made but these guys are the best in the business as far as I'm concerned. I talk with them regularly and sent them a note on this one.
Hope I'm not seeing a pattern of unfounded shots and statements at others made on this forum.
To be continued...
Edited by burfle23
12/21/2022 11:35 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
630 Posts |
burfle23: nonono, that's not the intent. I also sent them a polite note; some of us from a FB group (for Counterfeit Brit colonial copper) were bouncing it around. Anyone can make a mistake-even those in the biz for decades. That's a given. I was told that they offer a Money Back Guarantee, and nicely to mind my own business. I've known the principal person of the company for decades, and did some good business with him. My interest is to see if others see what I see, the Seller notwithstanding. That's why I copied the pictures, instead of using a link.
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/22/2022 12:26 am
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Moderator
 United States
56855 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4468 Posts |
Oldgrouchyguy, I want to apologize for posting the seller's link and taking the thread in a direction (about the seller) that was not your intent. I would like to get back to the discussion about the coin.
I am not familiar sand cast process, but on a typical cast copy the example gets raise bumps that I am not seeing on this coin. One area of concern is the recent handling scratches on the coin. For example, note the recent scratches around the AE and S and there are also some other fresh scratches through out the coin. These recent scratches may of have happened after the coin was cleaned and recolored or on a cast copy.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
517 Posts |
I too want it focused on the coin and without seeing the edge I see another environmentally challenged old copper.
I only wanted to know who to send some questions to, but the OP also stated "Looking over his other coins, it seems that he has several cast counterfeit NJ colonials, all different varieties, and all are of the same primitive sand-cast manufacture, scratches added, etc." Seems unfounded lacking any other evidence and a slam against the seller, who I have known for decades as well...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
630 Posts |
Slider23: oh that's OK; a search of the variety on ebay would have dispelled the anonymity... the scratches were added later and toned over. There is no wear on them, and some on his other coins still show pink where the retoning was unsuccessful. Depending on the mold, casts can look like almost anything (the Rome Republicans made some very nice Aes Graves, for example). I chose this one to illustrate my point because it's a pretty obvious cast to me. The bubble holes (and we are not talking pits by circulation or "bad planchet"), if produced/exploded when struck, would have a different appearance. What's scary to me is that it looks like someone cast their collection, and sold-off the copies. I have sooooome expertise in the area of Struck or Cast? coins, and they just jumped out at me. A Die State evaluation of many of them show wild unreported states (like breaks that are unseen in later die states). My earlier post of a 1798 S-161 Large Cent, struck from counterfeit dies and TPGed, proves that you really have to be on your toes... Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/22/2022 11:37 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
630 Posts |
burfle23: I can't help what you see or don't see. I have over 50 years experience with Colonials, and sold Mike Ringo every State issue or Washington cast I found except for the Massachusetts casts, because they are rare. And for fun, years ago I had a new Higley, an unreported variety, which everyone said was cast, but it wasn't. After a year of futility, Stack's, who knew it couldn't possibly be a cast, sold it raw for 69K. It's not "a slam" at against Seller, so please don't characterize it like that.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
517 Posts |
Oldgrouchyguy, has anyone else agreed the S-161 you posted is counterfeit?
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Replies: 52 / Views: 7,010 |
Posted 12/21/2022 6:19 pm
