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Replies: 15 / Views: 2,273 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
Another example of specimen dies used in circulation strikes, this time the 1949 50c. Both obverse and reverse. All of the specimen coins on Heritage and PCGS have this die pair. Many of the MS coins also have the same die pair. The wispy lines around the ear distinguish the obverse. I don't know if these are polish lines or tiny stress fractures in the die. The reverse shows a mark across the C, and several lines in the lion's thigh. Left are from an SP66 example, right are from two different MS66 examples. My MS63 example doesn't show these, but poking around looking for something to match up I found something else. Figured since I went to the trouble I might as well post it.   
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1618 Posts |
Cool! Love your work Kbbpll
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Moderator
 Canada
10456 Posts |
This. Is. Awesome.
Have you though about writing this up for the CN Journal or anything?
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4233 Posts |
I hadn't thought about writing an article on it. I'm not sure it's article worthy, as it doesn't seem to be astounding news that specimen dies were reused for circulation during this period. What do you think the gist of an article would be? As you've probably seen in my recent posts, I've also found this for the 1947 ML $1 reverse, 1948 50c obverse, and perhaps the 1948 $1 reverse. Others have posted similar findings in those posts for other years and denominations. It's definitely fun to find this stuff!
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5585 Posts |
I think that a CNJ article would be very important and valid these days, using markers to prove that specimen dies just weren't used for special coins. Every year we have 20-30 threads asking whetther their coin is a circulated specimen coin or if they have a proof, prooflike, specimen or MS coin. You photography is outstanding.
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Moderator
 Canada
10456 Posts |
Quote: ...as it doesn't seem to be astounding news that specimen dies were reused for circulation during this period. It is not news, but our information using specimen dies for business strikes, or business strike dies for specimen strikes is mostly circumstantial . Actually documenting this with die markers, is still important. So yes, it is worth writing about.
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4233 Posts |
I will consider writing something up then. I don't know what's already known or published on this topic. I'll look back through my Charlton books and see what they say (I have the two with the dollar and half dollar sections). I suppose putting all three coins (1949 50c, 1947 ML $1, 1948 50c) in one article makes sense. @okiecoiner the images are zooms from Heritage's excellent photos. They have given more or less blanket permission to do that for other articles I've written, so I don't think there's a problem with that, but I'll check before submitting to a different publication.
The 1948 50c obverse is the most interesting to me, since the specimen die is designated Convex. I've been wondering whether that means the circulation strikes were also convex. There was only one obverse die used, supposedly, which means they were all made from that specimen die. (I'll have to double check that). I don't know how to explain that only one obverse die is listed, and yet the specimens were both Convex and Concave. I should ask Paul G (can't recall his handle on here but I have his email). My 1947 ML 50c CR specimen is definitely concave on the obverse, convex on the reverse (visually it's obvious) which are not designated as such, perhaps because they all are. That's a separate topic but sort of related.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5585 Posts |
His handle is pginrh on here and other sites.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4233 Posts |
I have an early version of Paul's unpublished (still?) work on the George VI 50 cents. There is an excellent section on the refurbishment of punches (hubs) and dies, but he doesn't go into specimen coins. I sent him an email. Charlton doesn't say anything about specimen dies being reused, that I can find. On the 1948 question, mint records say 1 obverse and 1 reverse die, but there are definitely two reverse dies (narrow and wide date), so the RCM info here is probably wrong for the obverse as well. A statistically perplexing thing is that Heritage pulls up 80 results for 1949 50c. 9 are missing photos and half a dozen more are false results, leaving about 65 coins to examine. 5 out of 65 of these are MS coins having the specimen die pair (a sixth example is the same coin sold twice). Yet 46 obverse and 40 reverse dies were used, so you'd expect only one or two of the ~65 sold coins to be from a specific die pair, and yet there are 5 of them. I don't have a good explanation for that, but it's lucky for me to have had so many examples to look at. The hoof in 9 variety is over-represented as well.
Edited by kbbpll 03/18/2023 2:48 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4911 Posts |
Quote: ~65 sold coins to be from a specific die pair, and yet there are 5 of them. I don't have a good explanation for that I noticed this specimen die as well.. It seems to be that it's more common on the very high-end examples. The reason you see it represented so many times on heritage is because heritage brings in higher grade coins and this die pair appears to be more common on higher grade coins. I can't think of a single ms66 I've seen without this die pair. My best guess would be that the high grade examples off of this die are the result of a mint employee tucking a few pieces away. It's very possible that these coins in Mint State originated from the Lafortune collection, asking Sandy at proof Positive coins might be a good idea as he handled some coins from the Lafortune estate and may have been the originating source for these coins entering the market in the event my theory is correct.
Feel free to call me Will.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4233 Posts |
@thedollarman Interesting. I considered that value probably plays a role in the representation of the die pair on Heritage, but not why. I'm not familiar with the Lafortune collection but perhaps that explains it. The example that sold twice is in an ICCS holder and the other four are PCGS. Perhaps they all started out at ICCS and got moved into PCGS slabs over time. I suppose you'd expect that early circulation strikes from a reused specimen die would be higher quality strikes than the rest. This seems to be the case with my 1948 50c, obverse also from a specimen die, although only MS63.
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Valued Member
United States
467 Posts |
Thanks for this informative post. I just bought one of these in SP65 and the markers that the OP mentioned are there. For what it's worth there is what appears to be a wavy die in the vicinity of the British flag on the reverse. I'd like to be able to find a nice mint-state example to compare the SP vs. business strike.  
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4233 Posts |
Definitely the same die pair. I see your anomaly at the flag. I looked through all the SP and MS images I had saved off when doing this thread, and none of them have it. Perhaps it's something to do with that particular strike?
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Valued Member
Canada
289 Posts |
I have an SP66 at home. I'll try to remember to check it tonight. I can already tell from the TV that is has many of the same markers. I'll see if it happens to have the marks by the flag as well. My TV is reversed, so I can see the cameo well but those marks would be impossible to see.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4911 Posts |
I have seen your coin in person..it is a very nice representative for the grade.
The waviness you see is due to lacquer, not the die.
Feel free to call me Will.
Edited by thedollarman 11/09/2023 7:03 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4233 Posts |
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Replies: 15 / Views: 2,273 |
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