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Coin Engraver Charged With Altering Coins In Canada

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Pillar of the Community

Canada
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 Posted 03/21/2023  5:16 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add nickelsguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34395 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2023  5:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@nic, an interesting article and thanks for posting it. I've improved your title a bit to be more descriptive.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
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 Posted 03/21/2023  6:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yep. If you're in America, you can vandalize coins as much as you please. But in Canada, it's illegal.

His mistake:

Quote:
...all because I engraved a total of maybe $40 of my own coins — money that was sitting in a jar for months at my house...

He seems to believe that they're "his own coins". They're not. They belong to the Canadian government, which is graciously allowing him to use them for monetary purposes. The money that they represent belongs to him, but the coins themselves do not.


Quote:
"I'm not the only person doing something like this," El-Kurdi added. "How many museums and other places have you seen that have those penny-flattening machines?"


El-Kurdi provided BarrieToday with 10 links to people who take Canadian coins and use them to make jewelry or other artwork. "All these other people are doing the same or more, but I'm being charged?"

I think you'll find that most of those "other people" are living in America, where vandalizing Canadian coins is perfectly legal. And the elongated penny machines operating in Canada all should be using either US coins, or specially made blanks.

As for the "everybody else is doing it" defense... does he really think that will wash, even if it were true? Does that work when the cops pull you over for speeding, or running red lights?

I'm also a little confused about these contradictory statements:

Quote:
It's not even like what I'm doing to the coin is permanent, it can come off...


...all because I engraved a total of maybe $40 of my own coins

So, are they "engraved", or not? If they're engraved, that's physically cutting into the metal of the coin. That's pretty permanent, it won't just wash off in water or acetone. And I assume from the name of his website, "thelaserguy", that he's actually cutting into the coin with a laser. If you need an industrial laser or angle grinder to "remove" his vandalism, then it's permanent, and that's coin defacement.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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oriole's Avatar
Canada
5238 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2023  8:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
He says that he knew it was illegal but did it anyway.

Although I believe that the law is clear, I don't see the point of if there is no fraud or counterfeiting. Still, the law is the law, and it will be interesting to see the outcome of this, since it seems a rather trivial matter.
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nss-52's Avatar
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 Posted 03/22/2023  10:53 am  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I further "improved" the title of this subject.
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Pacificoin's Avatar
Canada
5393 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2023  11:11 am  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not to get political.
But with all of the other real problems in society
talk about petty and going after low hanging fruit!
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chadcoins's Avatar
Canada
1159 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2023  11:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chadcoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good read and didn't like his art, no class! See lots of this Canadian coin art and coin rings but classy on ebay. I wonder about resin penny projects used as building materials. I think the bottom line in defacing a coin for profit and how far you go with it is when the Coin Police show up on your door step.
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vonigohcr's Avatar
Canada
665 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2023  12:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vonigohcr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
100%agree with @pacificoin and not wanting to get political...

If you look at his website, he is voicing a political message; I wonder if this is what triggered a zealous prosecutor... I get the sense that had he been lasering bunnies and kittens on the coins then he would likely not have triggered an official reaction and @Pacificoin's low hanging fruit comment would apply. There is, after all, a long history of altering/defacing Canadian coins... JOP Stamped Silver Dollars often command a premium in today's secondary market. https://www.coinworld.com/news/worl...ins%20today.

It is true, however, that most of the pressed penny machines and sites that refer to them advise using US cents. Not all note that use of Canadian coins is illegal however most refer to the fact that Canadian cents are no longer generally available. I am not aware of any coin press machines in Canada that alter higher denomination coins whereas I have seen these in the US.

I am surprised that he has 2 charges against him one for defacing the coin and the other for offering the defaced coin for sale. If the latter is a real charge, then wouldn't all JOP dollars be illegal to sell.

I agree that if his defense is a reliance on "art" as a means of speech and a collection of "whatabout" comments, he may not be successful as this is an illegal act in Canada however if he relies on historical precedent such as the "JOP" dollars, he may have a better outcome.
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9862 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2023  1:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Meanwhile chartered banks in Angus are knowingly distributing counterfeit camel toe toonies, and I seem to remember not that long ago an ebay seller from there was selling Chinese counterfeit coins on ebay.
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United States
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 Posted 03/22/2023  1:07 pm  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
He seems to believe that they're "his own coins". They're not. They belong to the Canadian government, which is graciously allowing him to use them for monetary purposes. The money that they represent belongs to him, but the coins themselves do not.

Is this true?
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nss-52's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 03/22/2023  1:40 pm  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Canadian Law:
456. Every one who

(a) defaces a current coin, or
(b) utters a current coin that has been defaced,

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
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kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2023  2:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sounds like your typical TikTok attention "seeker." He dared them to arrest him so they did. Duh. Hey everybody, look at me!

The law in the US is a bit opaque. It's illegal to deface, etc currency, but apparently only "with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued." But it seems like you can do what you want to a coin, as long as it's not for advertising - "or otherwise impresses upon or attaches to any such instrument, obligation, or security, or any coin of the United States, any business or professional card, notice, or advertisement, or any notice or advertisement whatever, shall be fined under this title." So it seems like those coin elongating machines might technically be illegal here too, since even the ones in national park gift shops are "advertising" the park.
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vonigohcr's Avatar
Canada
665 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2023  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vonigohcr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
(a) defaces a current coin, or
(b) utters a current coin that has been defaced,


So that includes all Canadian coins past and present as no Canadian coins have been demonitized. Unlike the UK who appear to have demonitization parties fairly regularly (point of frustration for folks who travel there infrequently and don't cash out immediately after the trip). So under a strict interpretation of the law noted above (b) Selling a JOP Silver Dollar would qualify as equally illegal as the modifications discussed above.

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wallyb's Avatar
Canada
557 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2023  6:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wallyb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"I thought it was a joke, to be honest"
That says it all folks. Like it or not, it is the coin of the realm. As a Canadian I am sick of everyone and their dog having their own way with our institutions, ie: amending the National Anthem to suit your individual political persuasions. Good on the OPP for dealing with the 'complaint' appropriately. I, for one, support prosecuting profiteers who manipulate symbols of sovereignty for personal gain.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16806 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2023  10:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is this true?

It's not true in the US, but it's true in Canada. This is why Canada has laws preventing you from defacing coins, melting them down, exporting them to foreign scrap metal merchants, or indeed doing anything to or with a coin other than using it for money.

It's also why Canada is much more rigorous than the United States in withdrawing and scrapping obsolete coins. The metal in the coins belongs to the government; they are simply recovering their own property.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Canada
10456 Posts
 Posted 03/23/2023  08:57 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The metal in the coins belongs to the government; they are simply recovering their own property.


The Royal Canadian Mint is a Crown Corporation. They are not interested in recovering their property, they are interested in acquiring base metals at below market value and reusing them for their electroplating plants for new coinage. It is way more profitable doing that, than acquiring new raw materials.
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