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Pillar of the Community
 Russian Federation
5181 Posts |
Quote:
I thought I had a AH859 tanka, but now checking my newly arrived G&G, I see that what I thought was the "59", is actually the final letters 'ft' of the normal reverse last word "khilafatuhu" You sure about that? There's a 859 on Zeno and it matches your coin well enough. |
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Moderator
 United States
190135 Posts |
Nice example, BD!  |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2570 Posts |
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You sure about that? There's a 859 on Zeno and it matches your coin well enough. Yes, I see what you mean. I think this highlights how little I know about the Arabic scripts and how easily I can convince myself that I'm "on the right track". Funny, when I first played the coin, I remember searching Zeno, but didn't find that example you have shown in the link. Looks like it was added to Zeno later. Thanks for pointing it out. The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
Edited by ttkoo
11/27/2024 3:04 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5181 Posts |
Quote:
I think this highlights how little I know about the Arabic scripts and how easily I can convince myself that I'm "on the right track". My own knowledge of the Arabic script is probably much less than yours (despite seeing it on the street every day), so when I'm trying to attribute Islamic coins, I essentially treat the lettering as an ornament and try to match the shapes. This... usually works, especially if I already have an idea where to look. In this case, it turns out, by sheer coincidence, that the two bottom lines have nearly identical shapes, except that on the second-last line the final symbols are part of the lettering and on the last line they're (part of) the date. It's even better visible on the other Zeno 859. (On your coin, the "9" that is presumably really an F is at 8h, and the next letter is off flan. The actual 9 is indeed, as you correctly pointed out, at 6h, and the 5 is right next to it.) Looks like those two Zeno examples were added in May and June 2024 - your coin was posted in April, so yes, you couldn't have seen those at the time. I'll try to post my 1452/856 tomorrow morning - you can try to use your Arabic script skills then, to figure out if the catalog's explanation of its date is realistic  |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2570 Posts |
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I'll try to post my 1452/856 tomorrow morning - you can try to use your Arabic script skills then, to figure out if the catalog's explanation of its date is realistic That sounds like a plan The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5181 Posts |
As promised, here's the apparent 1452/856. (Unfortunately much later in the day than planned; this day turned out too busy.)     Shirvanshahs, Derbendi dynasty Khalilullah I (r. 1418-65) AR tanka, 856? AH (1452? AD) Zlobin 034.4 (plate XII-111, this coin) 16 mm, 3.78 grams (according to Zlobin) Zlobin's catalog says that the wiggles-and-dots in the squarish part between the thick text sections (roughly the upper right quarter of the first pic) are actually Arabic words for "fifty six". However, AFAICT (what later ended up as) my coin was the only example that Zlobin lists for this variant (...or, at least, no other examples are mentioned), so saying that it has to be this because this is what the catalog says it is feels uncomfortably like circular reasoning. As such: does the catalog's identification of the lettering in question make any sense to you? (It looks awkward to me, on a matching-the-shapes level, but I know that Arabic calligraphy can vary a lot, and I'm generally inclined to trust the catalog author.) [ EDIT: checking the actual catalog, I found that it does list one other example, so it's not like Zlobin postulated a variant based on just one coin. The "reconstructed" design is clearly based on the coin that ended up with me, though.] |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2570 Posts |
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As such: does the catalog's identification of the lettering in question make any sense to you?
(It looks awkward to me, on a matching-the-shapes level, but I know that Arabic calligraphy can vary a lot, and I'm generally inclined to trust the catalog author.) From the start, (and I don't want to be teaching you of all people about Russian) for the benefit of the others, your catalog basically says: "Type 034.4 Tanga. Reconstruction. Obv: in the center of the field, in the form of a square, there is a Kufic inscription, the Muslim symbol of faith:  a alih ala allah / muhamad rasul allahThere is no god but Allah / Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah The center of the square is occupied by an inscription in two lines:  Six / fifty (situn / Hamsin) also sitat hamsunOn the sides of the square are the names of the four righteous caliphs. The entire field of the Coin is surrounded by a linear rim. Rev: the center of the field is occupied by five cartouches, the intersection of which forms a pentagon. The inscription is located in the cartouches:  Sultan / the highest / legitimate / may Allah prolong / his reign. The place of minting is located in the center of the pentagon. The presence of external rims is not visible. It is a bit of a struggle to make out the words, but to paraphrase from something I read on line researching this, "As with any paleographic exercise, the more you know the language, the more smoothly reading various hands goes. Arabic is no different. Whatever the hand is like, however easy or hard to read, the text should make sense. If you think a letterform seems to be what it should not be, resulting in an impossible expression, you are probably misreading it. Yes, there can be mistakes and yes, people who write can misspell or leave words out, etc. " So with that in mind I had a crack, and here is your coin with my interpretation of the script relating to the date. (Keep in mind that arabic is read from right to left, it is also mainly a consonant based language without, for the most part what we would consider normal vowels, and also the various letters change in shape depending on whether they are the initial letter, medial letters or the final letter. Not to mention that there are some letters which have two different shapes, depending on the pronunciation of those letters within words, H being one example!)(Gold star if that makes sense to anyone!)   conclusion from me is yes, it represents (8)56. The same shapes could be made to represent other words if we tried hard enough, but I think the interpretation is accurate in this context. The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
Edited by ttkoo
11/28/2024 10:43 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
25740 Posts |
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5181 Posts |
Quote:  Wasn't expecting to get a response quite that detailed. Nice to know it's a plausible date, though! My next entry is at 1387 (February 1st, I believe). Currently missing dates: 1464, 1463, 1462, 1461, 1457, 1455, 1454, 1453. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2570 Posts |
1452 CE AH(8)56 Gujarat Sultanate 1 Falus 17mm 9.49g Cu Ahmed Shah II G&G G060  The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5181 Posts |
Excellent coin!  We are now at 1450, halfway through the 15th century. From the years 1500 to 1451 (indeed 1600 to 1451), only eight are currently missing: 1464, 1463, 1462, 1461, 1457, 1454, 1453, 1451. (IIRC some of those had dated coins posted in HFBCWG threads.) Upcoming milestones: 1440 - December 10th 1430 - December 20th 1420 - December 30th 1410 - January 9th 1400 - January 19th 1375 - February 13th 1350 - March 10th 1325 - April 4th 1300 - April 29th 1250 - June 18th 1200 - August 7th 1100 - November 15th Unless that thread ends up with a lot of fortunate updates very quickly, we'll probably catch up with the 7th edition of How Far Back Can We Go sometime during March (of 2025) - the 6th of March at the earliest, though hopefully later. |
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Moderator
United States
190135 Posts |
Quote:
As promised, here's the apparent 1452/856. Excellent! Quote:
1452 CE AH(8)56 Gujarat Sultanate Very nice! Quote:
We are now at 1450, halfway through the 15th century.  |
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Moderator
United States
34450 Posts |
Catch-up Groschen dated 1450 ("M CCCC L"):   "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Moderator
United States
34450 Posts |
Here is another Groschen from Cologne, but this one is dated 1449 AD:   "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2570 Posts |
1448 CE AH852 Gujarat 1 1/2 Falus AE G&G G50  The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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Posted 11/27/2024 09:03 am
