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Can I Get A Confirmation Of A Possible Error In The Listing On Numista Please?

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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 08/29/2024  9:35 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Dating the Israel coins is hard enough but when Numista misses a date and the ones following are in the wrong spot, makes it even harder.
I found a 2003 ½ New Sheqel date coin that I believe that their column for the translated date in parentheses '()' is incorrect
her is a screen image on the listing of the ½ New Sheqel coin taken from this link:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces7079.html
and one for the 1 sheqel coin with the same date time frame:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces9575.html
here are the images of both pages so you don.t need to go visit Numista
Firs one is the ½ Sheqel that I think is in error, and the next is the 1 Sheqel that looks correct.

I annotated the ½ coin for reference as to what I'm asking about.

and here is my coin with a close up of the date on the reverse:


I use the following link to determine independently of Numista of the date (which I got 2003)
https://creounity.com/apps/time_mac....php&lang=en

I'm asking here first, because I don't mind looking like a fool if I'm wrong here - but I want to give accurate info to Numista if I'm correct, so they can fix it.
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Marve65's Avatar
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 Posted 08/29/2024  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Marve65 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Dating the Israel coins is hard enough but when Numista misses a date and the ones following are in the wrong spot, makes it even harder.

Oh man, Dearborn - I could so respond but would probably be banned or at least a Va-Cay. So not gonna fall for it -
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Dearborn's Avatar
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 08/29/2024  10:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@dear, pls reach out to @tdz as they are one of the gurus over on numista. They should be able to put you in touch with whoever is heading up that region.
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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 08/29/2024  10:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Spence - I did not know that nice to nave a contact over there..
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Sap's Avatar
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 Posted 08/29/2024  10:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First off, we need to consider the nature of the Hebrew or Anno Mundi (AM) calendar used on Israeli coins. There is not a simple 1:1 conversion between it and the Gregorian AD calendar. Jewish New Year (Rosh Hashana), the day on which the year-number ticks over, happens sometime in September or October. It is not fixed to a particular AD-calendar date, because the Jewish year is lunisolar, of varying length (either 12 or 13 months).

Your coin is dated "5763". The year AM 5763 began on 7th September 2002 and ended on 26th September 2003. Thus, while more than half of the year AM 5763 occurred in AD 2003, citing the year 5763 as "2002" is not wrong - it's just less probable, unless there's a specific reason to believe that certain coins in particular were struck in the period between Rosh Hashanah and the Gregorian New Year. The Hanukkah coins, for example, were probably struck in this narrower time period since they would want to be released for sale before Hanukkah (which is normally around December). But you'd have to ask the Israeli Mint such questions; if they follow the practice of other modern world mints, the 5763 Hanukkah coins may actually have been struck much earlier, pushing back into 5762.

So I assume whoever contributed those two pieces of the coin lists on Numista simply reckoned the date-conversion differently. That being said, it is probably best for all concerned if databases such as Numista use a consistent conversion, and "5763 = 2003" is probably the most logical choice.
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Hondo Boguss's Avatar
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 Posted 08/30/2024  12:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hondo Boguss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 08/30/2024  08:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Sap on your comment - I was aware of the different calendars used that start and stop in our Georgian one we use here, but that was not my question.
If you go back and look at the images I posted. (the first 2 of the 2 different coin listings) you will see that the date using the lunisolar calendar (I'll list it on the next line:
5757 which equates to (1997) once yo subtract the 3760 to get the AD date
then
5758 (1998)
5759 (1999)
5760 (2000) Then they go:
5761 (2000) Again instead of 2001 - doubling up on 2000 - and I'm sorry but 5761-3760 does NOT equal 2000 but instead 2001
Then they (Numista) followed up with 2001 (finally) through 2008, THEN they skip 2009 and go to 2010 (which is correct at that point and the math works.

Go line by line and compare the 2 lists I put up. the second one is correct.
My annotated one highlights where I think is the mistake has been made...
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Dearborn's Avatar
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Sap's Avatar
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 Posted 08/30/2024  11:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...and I'm sorry but 5761-3760 does NOT equal 2000 but instead 2001...

But it does... at least, partially. Because "AD date = AM date minus 3760" is a simplistic and not-always-correct calculation, due to the different foundations of the two calendars. You can choose to use the equation "AD date = AM date minus 3761" instead, and for three or four months out of twelve, you will be correct.

The year AD 2000 contains pieces of both the AM years 5760 and 5761. The larger piece is in 5760 (January to September), and so the more probable answer to the question "what Hebrew year is equivalent to AD 2000" is "5760" rather than "5761". But saying a coin dated AM 5761 was struck in AD 2000 is not, necessarily, an "error" in the sense of being wrong - it's just inconsistent with the rest of the date conversions for Israeli coins on Numista, as you have pointed out. I'm not defending Numista's inconsistency here, and I'm not saying it shouldn't be changed - I am merely attempting to explain how the inconsistency may have come about.

I suspect the inconsistency may have arisen by a Numista contributor acquiring a newly-minted half-shekel coin in late 2000, dated 5761. That contributor knew that their coin couldn't possibly have been made in 2001, because it wasn't 2001 yet when they acquired it, so they wrote "2000" for the date of issue on their 2x2 and that's what they entered in Numista.
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Keith67's Avatar
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 Posted 08/30/2024  11:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Keith67 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I love the CCF
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Dearborn's Avatar
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71779 Posts
 Posted 08/30/2024  1:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But it does... at least, partially. Because "AD date = AM date minus 3760" is a simplistic and not-always-correct calculation, due to the different foundations of the two calendars. You can choose to use the equation "AD date = AM date minus 3761" instead, and for three or four months out of twelve, you will be correct.

So why didn't Numista stay consistent between the pages on their site - It's not like I can pick up a 5761 coin and know instantly that it was minted in Sept of th eprevious year.
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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 08/30/2024  1:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
and going by your logic, why wouldn't ALL years be set back by one year, not just the 2000 (5761)?
I'm reasonably certain that the Jewish people didn't randomly bounce the start and end of their calendars.
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ratman4762's Avatar
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 Posted 08/30/2024  2:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ratman4762 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And this is why I don't go there.............................
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jacrispies's Avatar
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 Posted 08/30/2024  4:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
More popcorn!!!
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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 08/30/2024  4:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ok Sap, you don't seem to get what I'm trying to say here. Yes I know all about the islamic date calendars and that stuff that starts and stops at a different part of Our Gregorian calendar.
I posted on my firs post 3 images of the Numista pages the first to (not the one I drew all over) are the ones I would like you to look at, ok?
First off the the first list is from the ½ Sheqel listing and the next one is from the 1 (ONE) Sheqel listing (I put up the links for both up there too.

Now these to coins BOTH come from the SAME Mint produced package. (It even states that these coins were only issued in sets)

So! reading down the list of the 3 dates on these lists should match from one to the other (like comparing an apple to another apple - the dating 'should' be the same. After all they came in the SAME Set.)
but they are not the same - the ½ is listed with 2 (2000) dates and no (2009) dates, while the 1 sheqel list in numerically consistent from top to bottom.

Please I can explain this far better on the phone - if you want, please give me a call and I can walk you through what I see far better than what I can type it (you have my number)


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