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Replies: 24 / Views: 2,739 |
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Valued Member
United States
343 Posts |
Hello again all, I'm working on a project and looking for some feedback. I've noticed of late that I've been seeing what appears to be clashing within the Obverse Legend (Liberty Band) on different Morgan dollars with rotated die clashes. I've been able to find basically nothing on the topic and wanted to get some opinions. The first example that I'd like to explore is a 1900-O VAM-15A that is pictured on VAMWorld. I've circled the section in question, it looks to me that the wreath bow may have clashed in this area, possibly twice as there are two similar looking "clashes" (or a clash and a counterclash) of varying strength. It even appears that the designers initial "M" is (counter)clashed between the I and B of LIBERTY. I'm aware that clashing doesn't typically take place in this area, but this looks too structured to me to simply be damage or bag marks, and with the rotated die clashes I thought it might be possible (if not probable). Any input would be greatly appreciated as always!    Edited by UnimpossibIe 05/07/2025 6:33 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2213 Posts |
That's a nice clasher. I like clashed Morgans, especially with letter transfer. Here's overlays of clash which can vary with the die rotation. If there's a clash on LIBERTY with M that would be cool but it may just be bag damage. The photo isn't good enough quality to say. I don't see a clear M there. I have about 50 clashed Morgans, don't think any have clash on LIBERTY.  
Edited by livingwater 05/07/2025 2:18 pm
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Moderator
 United States
187446 Posts |
Nice example! 
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Valued Member
 United States
343 Posts |
I've highlighted the areas where I believe the "M"s are located - a clashed and counterclashed pair between the I and B and another potential pair to the right of the L in LIBERTY (possibly struck at an angle). I realize that the pictures are not ideal, but I figured that many of you should be pretty good at squinting by now. 
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
10470 Posts |
Nice clashing on a great looking Morgan.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2213 Posts |
Sorry, squinting didn't help my old eyes with that Vamworld pic. I have a VAM-15 but it's at the bank box so I can't look at LIBERTY with magnifier. Multiple clashes can cancel out parts of prior clash and as the dies wear the clashes can become weaker. 
Edited by livingwater 05/07/2025 5:06 pm
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Valued Member
 United States
343 Posts |
@livingwater thank you so much for sharing that. The triple-clashed version is so rare that I've only found partial pictures of it, it's great to see the full coin. As to the Legend clashes, I've only seen them on a few examples, most don't seem to be struck firmly enough to show the detail. Thank you again, it is much appreciated.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2213 Posts |
Edited by livingwater 05/07/2025 5:36 pm
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Valued Member
 United States
343 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
Why don't you tell us what "your project" consists of mentioned in your OP. Not sure what you are trying to get at or do. I would suggest you try and decipher PMD from clashes in very unlikely positions on coins.
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Valued Member
 United States
343 Posts |
@VAMsforMoney my project is to try and decipher PMD from clashes in very unlikely positions on coins. The first area I'm focusing on is the Obverse Legend, or Liberty Band. The two coins I've posted pictures of are examples that I believe may have clashes within the Legend due to being VAMs having multiple clashes with rotated dies. I chose these two coins because the "damage" in this area appears to me to have structure beyond what I'd expect from bag marks or PMD. Your opinion is welcomed.
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Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
Okay thanks, that helps. Let's start with the basics. Anything recessed (low) on the coin is raised (high) on the die. Anything raised (high) on the coin is recessed (low) in the die. Thus the devices of the dies are recessed and the field of the die is raised. So common clash marks such as right wing clash at Liberty's neck on the obverse and capvee clash next to the right wreath tip on the reverse of coins depicts the "edge" of the die between the high points (field) on the die and the "valley" (device) on the die. The right wing clash on the obverse at Liberty's neck is the "edge" between the valley or recess of the wing and the high point or field on the die. So now to your study. The headband is recessed into the die. The motto letters are raised on the die. So id the dies clash, the first place for clash marks would be on the letters of the motto (recessed into the die). PMD would affect the raised band on the coin first and not inside the letters of the coin. So if the marks you se are on the band but not inside the letters, it won;t be a clash mark. That being said if PMD is severe enough, it could reach the bottom of the motto letters, but that should be obvious PMD at that point. Hope that helps your project.
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Valued Member
 United States
343 Posts |
@VAMsforMoney thank you for the info. I do know most of that, I think my inexperience has caused me to use improper terminology. Let me ask you this - if the "clashing" within the Legend were counterclashing combined with a rotated die, could it theoreticallly be visible in the Headband but not the Motto?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2213 Posts |
If you haven't, you could join Vamworld discussion group. Ask them if they're aware of any clashes on LIBERTY.
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Valued Member
 United States
343 Posts |
Now that I have a few people's attention, I have another question regarding the 1882-CC VAM-2D that I have pictured. I've noticed the damage to the N and E in ONE. It appears to be from one of the Dots on the Obverse, again with a rotated die (counter)clash. Does anyone know of any other Morgans VAMs involving clashing to the outer letters, numbers or symbols (Obverse Motto/Stars/Dots/Date or Reverse Legend/Stars/Wingtips)? 
Edited by UnimpossibIe 05/08/2025 7:38 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2213 Posts |
Looks like damage to me on the letters. It would be interesting to compare several dollars that are the same VAM. Some may or may not know the whole VAM thing started with Leroy Van Allen and George Mallis who co-wrote their book about Morgan varieties. The word VAM is an acronym of their names. Last I heard Leroy is still alive but has retired from identifying VAMS and has turned that over to others. Leroy would periodically publish lists of new VAMS and update prior lists. On Vamworld the descriptions are not always complete, just highlights are stated. As I mentioned you'd have more collectors to look and respond if you posted pics/questions on Vamworld discussion group.
Edited by livingwater 05/08/2025 8:46 pm
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Replies: 24 / Views: 2,739 |