Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!300,000 items to help build your collection! Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Shop CCF Members on eBay! Specializing in Modern Numismatics








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

1900-O VAM-15A And 1882-CC VAM-2-D Morgan Silver Dollars - Rotated Die Clashing In Obverse Legend?

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 24 / Views: 2,739Next Topic
Page: of 2
Valued Member

United States
343 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2025  11:08 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add UnimpossibIe to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello again all, I'm working on a project and looking for some feedback. I've noticed of late that I've been seeing what appears to be clashing within the Obverse Legend (Liberty Band) on different Morgan dollars with rotated die clashes. I've been able to find basically nothing on the topic and wanted to get some opinions. The first example that I'd like to explore is a 1900-O VAM-15A that is pictured on VAMWorld. I've circled the section in question, it looks to me that the wreath bow may have clashed in this area, possibly twice as there are two similar looking "clashes" (or a clash and a counterclash) of varying strength. It even appears that the designers initial "M" is (counter)clashed between the I and B of LIBERTY. I'm aware that clashing doesn't typically take place in this area, but this looks too structured to me to simply be damage or bag marks, and with the rotated die clashes I thought it might be possible (if not probable). Any input would be greatly appreciated as always!

1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
Edited by UnimpossibIe
05/07/2025 6:33 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
2213 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2025  1:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's a nice clasher. I like clashed Morgans, especially with letter transfer.

Here's overlays of clash which can vary with the die rotation. If there's a clash on LIBERTY with M that would be cool but it may just be bag damage. The photo isn't good enough quality to say. I don't see a clear M there.

I have about 50 clashed Morgans, don't think any have clash on LIBERTY.

1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
Edited by livingwater
05/07/2025 2:18 pm
Moderator
Learn More...
jbuck's Avatar
United States
187446 Posts
Valued Member
United States
343 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2025  3:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add UnimpossibIe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've highlighted the areas where I believe the "M"s are located - a clashed and counterclashed pair between the I and B and another potential pair to the right of the L in LIBERTY (possibly struck at an angle). I realize that the pictures are not ideal, but I figured that many of you should be pretty good at squinting by now.

1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
Marv65's Avatar
United States
10470 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2025  3:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Marv65 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice clashing on a great looking Morgan.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2213 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2025  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry, squinting didn't help my old eyes with that Vamworld pic. I have a VAM-15 but it's at the bank box so I can't look at LIBERTY with magnifier. Multiple clashes can cancel out parts of prior clash and as the dies wear the clashes can become weaker.

1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
Edited by livingwater
05/07/2025 5:06 pm
Valued Member
United States
343 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2025  4:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add UnimpossibIe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@livingwater thank you so much for sharing that.
The triple-clashed version is so rare that I've only found partial pictures of it, it's great to see the full coin. As to the Legend clashes, I've only seen them on a few examples, most don't seem to be struck firmly enough to show the detail. Thank you again, it is much appreciated.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2213 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2025  5:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't mean to hijack your post but for those interested in clashhes here are four more of my clased Morgans, two have letter transfer:

1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?

1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
Edited by livingwater
05/07/2025 5:36 pm
Valued Member
United States
343 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2025  5:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add UnimpossibIe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No problem @livingwater, the more the merrier. Speaking of which, here is another Morgan I found with potential Legend clashing. This one is actually an 1882-CC as well, although it is a VAM-2D:

1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
Valued Member
VAMsforMoney's Avatar
United States
220 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2025  4:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add VAMsforMoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Why don't you tell us what "your project" consists of mentioned in your OP. Not sure what you are trying to get at or do. I would suggest you try and decipher PMD from clashes in very unlikely positions on coins.
Valued Member
United States
343 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2025  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add UnimpossibIe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@VAMsforMoney my project is to try and decipher PMD from clashes in very unlikely positions on coins. The first area I'm focusing on is the Obverse Legend, or Liberty Band. The two coins I've posted pictures of are examples that I believe may have clashes within the Legend due to being VAMs having multiple clashes with rotated dies. I chose these two coins because the "damage" in this area appears to me to have structure beyond what I'd expect from bag marks or PMD. Your opinion is welcomed.
Valued Member
VAMsforMoney's Avatar
United States
220 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2025  6:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add VAMsforMoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okay thanks, that helps. Let's start with the basics. Anything recessed (low) on the coin is raised (high) on the die. Anything raised (high) on the coin is recessed (low) in the die. Thus the devices of the dies are recessed and the field of the die is raised.

So common clash marks such as right wing clash at Liberty's neck on the obverse and capvee clash next to the right wreath tip on the reverse of coins depicts the "edge" of the die between the high points (field) on the die and the "valley" (device) on the die. The right wing clash on the obverse at Liberty's neck is the "edge" between the valley or recess of the wing and the high point or field on the die.

So now to your study. The headband is recessed into the die. The motto letters are raised on the die. So id the dies clash, the first place for clash marks would be on the letters of the motto (recessed into the die). PMD would affect the raised band on the coin first and not inside the letters of the coin. So if the marks you se are on the band but not inside the letters, it won;t be a clash mark. That being said if PMD is severe enough, it could reach the bottom of the motto letters, but that should be obvious PMD at that point.

Hope that helps your project.
Valued Member
United States
343 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2025  7:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add UnimpossibIe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@VAMsforMoney thank you for the info. I do know most of that, I think my inexperience has caused me to use improper terminology. Let me ask you this - if the "clashing" within the Legend were counterclashing combined with a rotated die, could it theoreticallly be visible in the Headband but not the Motto?
Pillar of the Community
United States
2213 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2025  7:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you haven't, you could join Vamworld discussion group. Ask them if they're aware of any clashes on LIBERTY.
Valued Member
United States
343 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2025  7:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add UnimpossibIe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Now that I have a few people's attention, I have another question regarding the 1882-CC VAM-2D that I have pictured. I've noticed the damage to the N and E in ONE. It appears to be from one of the Dots on the Obverse, again with a rotated die (counter)clash. Does anyone know of any other Morgans VAMs involving clashing to the outer letters, numbers or symbols (Obverse Motto/Stars/Dots/Date or Reverse Legend/Stars/Wingtips)?
1900-O-VAM-15A-And-1882-CC-VAM-2-D-Morgan-Silver-Dollars---Rotated-Die-Clashing-In-Obverse-Legend?
Edited by UnimpossibIe
05/08/2025 7:38 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
2213 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2025  7:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like damage to me on the letters. It would be interesting to compare several dollars that are the same VAM.

Some may or may not know the whole VAM thing started with Leroy Van Allen and George Mallis who co-wrote their book about Morgan varieties. The word VAM is an acronym of their names. Last I heard Leroy is still alive but has retired from identifying VAMS and has turned that over to others. Leroy would periodically publish lists of new VAMS and update prior lists. On Vamworld the descriptions are not always complete, just highlights are stated.

As I mentioned you'd have more collectors to look and respond if you posted pics/questions on Vamworld discussion group.
Edited by livingwater
05/08/2025 8:46 pm
  Previous TopicReplies: 24 / Views: 2,739Next Topic
Page: of 2

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.36 seconds to rattle this change. Forums