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1900 Liberty Nickel Struck On Wrong Planchet

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Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
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 Posted 12/20/2009  7:00 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I picked up this nickel in a lot of scrubs on ebay. It weights exactly the same as an 1899 5 centavos coin from Nicaragua. The Krause catalog didn't list a weight for that coin, so I bought one for comparison...because heritage has sold a couple examples that the seller claimed was struck on that planchet. Both coins weigh right at 3 grams on my inexpensive digital scale.

Experts tell me that's not possible, because the US Mint didn't strike those coins for Nicaragua. I'd be interested to see if anybody here has any input into this anomally.

Chancellor Sutler

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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 12/20/2009  9:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Experts tell me that's not possible, because the US Mint didn't strike those coins for Nicaragua.


So look for what the Mint was striking at the time which could possibly be the right planchet. Venezuela comes to mind. Given that your coin is somewhat worn, it's reasonable to conclude that the weight will be *slightly* lower than the spec weight of whatever donor planchet it actually is, so concentrate on the diameter as a starting point. I'd measure from like 2:30 to 8:30, just where the denticles begin and end, because I'm thinking since it's rimless that the strike would have elongated the planchet somewhat in the NW-SE direction. In fact, it might be a hint as to its' authenticity if it's longer from 11:00-5:00 than it is from 2:30-8:30.

It looks like a raw blank, before upsetting; if you can find a coin minted without a raised rim it might be a help. It seems much more likely that a planchet would get loose of the process after the upsetting operation, rather than before.

Then again, it's always been my belief that many of these errors were caused by deliberate Mint worker actions (heck, I'd do it myself if I could ), so anything's possible.
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Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
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 Posted 12/20/2009  9:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've read that because the somewhat thinner planchet also didn't fill the coining chamber, that these are typically weakly struck. The weakness always shows in the wreath to the left of the bow, and in the hair on the obverse. That weakness is present on a lot of Liberty nickels anyway, but that characteristic is present on this coin. It's also interesting that between the stars, the edge of the coin takes almost a faceted appearance because the metal was flowing into the stars. The coin is about the thickness of a dime.

I too think that the mint employees could have had a hand in this kind of thing.

Chancellor Sutler



Edited by Chancellor Sutler
12/20/2009 9:40 pm
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 12/20/2009  11:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, keep in mind that nickel was a heckuva lot harder to strike than anything preceding it. That's why nickel is such an important alloying compound in aerospace; it's hard, and tough. As a result, striking nickel alloys darn near exceeded the abilities of the dies and equipment of the day; they had to compromise striking pressure in favor of equipment longevity. Fully-struck Liberty nickels are worth a premium to the knowledgeable collector.
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Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
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 Posted 12/20/2009  11:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've read a lot on the Shield nickel in particular, and I have a set of Liberty nickels all in EF-AU, missing just the 85 and the 12-S.

I picked this coin up a few weeks ago and am preparing to sign up with PCGS and will send this as one of my 4 initial submissions.

Chancellor Sutler

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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 12/20/2009  11:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Um, yeah, I think that's an appropriate submission.

I can't see the horizontal bars to be sure, but it certainly looks like about a $5k AU example of the lowest-mintage business strike of the series.
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 Posted 12/20/2009  11:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is one coin that my camera has real problems with. While I am hoping it's a business strike, I'm not optomistic that they will see it as such. It does have prooflike surfaces....but they used the same dies for proofs and business strikes, so the water gets real muddy real fast.

The horizontal lines are complete...just a bad picture.

Chancellor Sutler.
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 12/21/2009  10:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think I'll just sit this one out. I've already expressed my opinions on the other forum this was posted on. But I will say that it can't be Venezuela because the Mint last produced material for them in 1877 and it would be unlikely that any planchets would still be floating around 23 years later. (Besides nothing matches size, weight and composition wise.)
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 Posted 12/21/2009  10:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Conder....I want you to know that of the people from "The other place", you are one of 2 or 3 for whom I have a tremendous amount of respect. You have never demeaned me in any way, which is a whole lot more than I can say about a lot of the membership there.

Do me a favor.....and have the grand wizard (GDwhatever) take a look at this thread if you will (link below). I asked that I be banned from that forum. Initially, the date that the account was to be reinstated was "never"....but has since changed to 90 days. I have no intention of ever going back to that forum. There are far too many mean spirited and snobbish folks there. Note that I do not include you in that "lot". That's not been your hallmark. I know there are good people there, and probably some stinkers here...but I like it here better.

https://goccf.com/t/57070

Chancellor Sutler

Edited by Chancellor Sutler
12/21/2009 12:00 pm
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 12/21/2009  10:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But I will say that it can't be Venezuela because the Mint last produced material for them in 1877


My apologies; I misinterpreted the reference I checked regarding Mint foreign coin production:

http://www.pdxcoinclub.org/articles...%20table.pdf

I took the liberty of checking the opinions you posted elsewhere, and I'd have to agree that the next logical step is to determine the specific gravity of the coin.
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Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
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 Posted 12/21/2009  10:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Whoa....I haven't had to mess with that stuff since 9th grade "Introductory Physical Science"...and let's just say that was a loooong time ago. so that'll take some doing for me. I don't have the necessary measuring vessels...that I do know.

Chancellor Sutler
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 12/21/2009  11:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Chancellor Sutler, I'll let your post regarding the other forum stand because of the well-deserved compliment you give Conder. However, I ask that in the future we not discuss that place; even though Coin Community was formed by former members there who received the same treatment as yourself, we much prefer not to make public judgments regarding other fora. It's one of those "if you've nothing good to say, keep quiet" kind of things.

Specific gravity will help to determine the exact composition of the metal in your coin, which will obviously narrow the possibilities. I'm also curious as to the quality of the strike given the coin's thinner planchet - it prompts the question of whether the Mint press was mechanically limited in its' travel, or pressure-limited to the extent that the dies could move more closely together than normal during a strike. The latter would have to be true for this to be a genuine coin.
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Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
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 Posted 12/21/2009  12:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I removed the name of the other place from my previous post, and will refrain from mentioning it in the future. There's a loose end that I can do nothing about though, because I can contact nobody through that site. Anyway, I promise not to do that again.

I have thought over and over about sending this nickel to Mike Ellis at Dominion, and will likely end up doing that after the holidays. It would be nice to have it in a Dominion "signature" slab...and maybe I can get Mike to do the leg work for me

Chancellor Sutler
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 12/21/2009  12:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have thought over and over about sending this nickel to Mike Ellis at Dominion, and will likely end up doing that after the holidays.


Whole-heartedly agreed.
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DVCollector's Avatar
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 Posted 12/21/2009  2:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll just chime in and say that's a very interesting nickel!
As a thought on a specific gravity test--since nickel and copper are very close (8.90-8.94), determining a specific alloy will be tough. I hope you get this attributed--good luck!
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GFR3's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2010  12:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GFR3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
any updates for us?
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